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[RT] Re: Bryce Gilmore's Challenge of Astro Trading



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In reply to Darrin below:

Darrin,

    I have no problem with people who are frank or outspoken. I am not
known among my friends and family as Mr. Diplomat. Nor do I expect to get an
appointment, in this lifetime, to the United Nations.  However, I do have a
problem with hypocrites. Bryce's post was overtly  hypocritical and at my
expense. I see no way around that. If he publicly apologizes, he may
eventually regain my respect. Otherwise, for all I care, he can go to the
Outback and
drink his Foster's 'til the Aborigine come home.

Regards,

Norman

P.S. Let's not bore the RT list with this anymore. Ok?

Darrin Vernier wrote:

> Norman,
>
> Bryce is not only focused, but also Australian. From what I've seen of them
> on his newsgroup, they don't care to understand what 'politically correct'
> means. Very brash and outspoken. For them, it serves a purpose.
>
> Bryce is extremely focused on the hammer and nails that he uses to
> accomplish his goals. I once tried to talk saws to him and almost came away
> with blisters. I took it personally at first, but then I realized Bryce is
> exactly who he needs to be to do what Bryce does.
>
> So is Norman, in an entirely different way.
>
> That's 'why' I look forward to both of your postings.
> Same planet, two different views.
>
> As I see it neither 'needs' defending.
> As long as you both believe that, you both win.
>
> And we get to hear both of you return to what you do best.
>
>                                      Darrin
>
> >From: nwinski <nwinski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Reply-To: nwinski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >CC: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: [RT] Re: Bryce Gilmore's Challenge of Astro Trading
> >Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:34:36 -0800
> >
> >
> >
> >Darrin Vernier wrote:
> >
> > > Norman,
> > >
> > > >Bryce says, "anyone
> > > >who uses a clock is a coo-coo. Norman tells time using a clock.
> > >
> > > What makes you believe that Bryce isn't using a clock?
> > >
> > > If you believe he isn't using a clock then what he uses isn't, to you.
> > >
> > > >From what I have seen of Bryce, he sees two kinds of clocks.
> > >
> > > He learned to tell time with both, and found that FOR HIM, one was more
> > > accurate and applicable to his trading.
> > >
> > > The reverse might be true for you.
> > >
> > > You're both holding a different part of the same elephant.
> > > Looking at different aspects of the same clock.
> > >
> > > Is it more productive to argue about whether the elephant is a tree or
> >an
> > > angel, or to see the whole elephant?
> > >
> > > Does the same hold true for clocks?
> > >
> > > When is a circle not a circle?
> > >
> > > Is 3:00 90 degrees? So many trading days? A planetary aspect?
> > >
> > > If planets can aspect, can numbers as well?
> > >
> > > There is a story about people speaking different languages.
> > > It is called the 'Tower of Babble'.
> > >
> > > When they began speaking different languages they became more intent on
> > > destroying one another rather than noticing that what they both were
> >saying
> > > was much the same and that they could each learn from the other.
> > >
> > >                                              Babyloningly,
> > >                                              Darrin,
> >
> >   Darrin,
> >
> >       I agree. You have argued my point well. Bryce indicted me for using
> >Astrology, when in fact he apparently is also using Astrology. I am all for
> >learning from others. In fact, I tried to contact Bryce several times,
> >about 10
> >years ago, leaving messages on his answering machine. But, he never
> >returned my
> >calls. I  have not corresponded or talked to Bryce since I briefly met him
> >at a
> >1989 conference where I was a speaker. Now,  out of left field comes this
> >hypocritical attack. He has probably never even looked at a sample of my
> >work,
> >let alone corresponded with me. He is in no position to judge me. He must
> >have a
> >list of possible competitors on a wheel, he spins the pointer, and sees who
> >will
> >be his next "victim of the week". I guess it was my turn this week.
> >Ironically,
> >it seems while trying to shoot me, he shot himself in the foot.
> >
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Norman
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >To: Darrin Vernier <gphx@xxxxxxxxxxx>,        realtraders
> > > ><realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >Subject: Re: [RT] Bryce Gilmore's Challenge of Astro Trading
> > > >Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:15:54 -0800
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Darrin Vernier wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Norman has an analog clock with hands that say 3:00.
> > > > > Bryce has a digital clock that says 3:00.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you choose which one is right, or is there a different way of
> > > >looking at
> > > > > this?
> > > > >
> > > > >                                            With Utmost Respect,
> > > > >                                            Darrin
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. Unleash the hounds...
> > > >
> > > >Darrin,
> > > >
> > > >    Sorry, I don't understand how your metaphor or analagy relates to
> >the
> > > >current
> > > >attack by Bryce on me?  A more apropriate analogy would be:  Bryce
> >says,
> > > >"anyone
> > > >who uses a clock is a coo-coo. Norman tells time using a clock.
> >Therefore,
> > > >Norman is a coo coo. By the way, my clock says it is time to for
> >everyone
> > > >to
> > > >check out my website where I have the latest line of clocks."
> > > >
> > > >CooCooingly,
> > > >
> > > >Norman
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: nwinski <nwinski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > >Reply-To: nwinski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>        bryce-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >Subject: [RT] Bryce Gilmore's Challenge of Astro Trading
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 00:46:17 -0800
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Ref:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > http://www.eGroups.com/group/get_traders/146.html?
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >  From: Bryce Gilmore & Associates bryce-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  To: RealTraders realtrader-@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:30 PM
> > > > > >  Subject: Fw: [RT] Re: Gann the method
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > BG: I am not a member of realtraders but it will be interesting
> >to
> > > >see
> > > > > >if they
> > > > > >  > publish this.
> > > > > >  > Bryce.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  NW: Unfortunately for you Bryce, you got your wish. I shall now
> >prove
> > > > > >  that you don't know what you are talking about which will surely
> > > > > >  reduce or erase your credibility as a supposed Gann expert.
> >Please
> > > > > >  see the rest of my reply after Bryce's post.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > Bryce Gilmore wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >            To Real Traders,
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I hope this is not taken the wrong way by your members - and I
> > > > > >  trust you
> > > > > >  > will publish it to them for the sake of education.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I am not against people who use astrology in the markets - but
> >I
> > > > > >  don't
> > > > > >  know
> > > > > >  > any who do who make any serious money from that angle.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I got this copy of Norman's email relayed to me so I am not
> >sure
> > > > > >  which bus
> > > > > >  > he is stepping off. But I do know that Gann was not an
> >astrology
> > > > > >  freak
> > > > > >  only
> > > > > >  > an observer of planetary phenomena in relation to natural
> >cycles.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Norman Winski or Norman if you allow me to be personal has a
> >way of
> > > > > >  exciting
> > > > > >  > people into the mysterious, if Norman knows what Gann was about
> >he
> > > > > >  would
> > > > > >  be
> > > > > >  > a little less careless with his statements.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Gann was about using the dynamic action of the market to find
> > > > > >  resistance
> > > > > >  and
> > > > > >  > support, his planetary studies are related to seasonal time
> >periods
> > > > > >  between
> > > > > >  > expected change in trend. When one goes into astrology the
> >options
> > > > > >  become
> > > > > >  > limitless.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > So, my message is this, Anyone who believes Gann is based on
> > > > > >  astrology
> > > > > >  > should stand back and take another look. Teachers such as
> >Norman W
> > > > > >  who
> > > > > >  claim
> > > > > >  > Gann was all about astrology are using you and you will never
> >be
> > > > > >  able to
> > > > > >  > check whether their claims have any validity, cause the
> >astrology
> > > > > >  aspect
> > > > > >  > only repeats about every 25,000 years.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Hope this is of use to your group.
> > > > > >  > regards,
> > > > > >  > Bryce Gilmore.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  NW:     I will now refer you and the list to a book that is
> >commonly
> > > > > >  available. Please retrieve a copy of Perry Kaufman's Trading
> >Systems
> > > > > >  & Methods, Copyright 1978, published by John Wiley & Sons, ISBN
> > > > > >  0-471-03569-6. Please turn to page 202 where Kaufman shows a copy
> >of
> > > > > >  Gann's famous 1948 Soybean chart. Bryce, you see just to the
> >right of
> > > > > >  the left hand price axis, between 260 and 264? What is that
> >curvey
> > > > > >  funny looking "4" ? Could it be the glyph for Jupiter? Oh, you
> >don't
> > > > > >  think so? Ok, there is another funny 4 just a little bit higher
> >and
> > > > > >  about two inches to the right. This one has that funny 4 followed
> >by
> > > > > >  a "30" and an arrow pointing up and to the right. Bruce, if you
> >knew
> > > > > >  any Astrology, you would know that means that the funny looking 4
> >is
> > > > > >  the glyph for Jupiter, the 30 means 30 degrees, an the arrow is
> >the
> > > > > >  glyph for the zodiacal sign Sagittarius. Still don't believe it?
> >Just
> > > > > >  check an ephemeris (table of planetary
> > > > > >  tables - translated for pseudo Gann experts like Bryce) and you
> >will
> > > > > >  see that Jupiter was actually at that position at the time the
> >chart
> > > > > >  was drawn.  To make a long analysis short, this type of stuff is
> >all
> > > > > >  over that chart. Jupiter, Mars, signs, etc. So, if Gann didn't
> >use
> > > > > >  Astrology, why did he bother to have hand drawn all those
> >intricate
> > > > > >  Astrological symbols on his Soybean chart? Oh, by the way, he
> >shows
> > > > > >  Mars
> > > > > >  forming a conjunction with Jupiter right at the top of the
> >Soybean
> > > > > >  market. Gann's former partner, JC, with whom I spoke with, said
> >Gann
> > > > > >  went short there based on Astrology. JC also said that Gann was
> > > > > >  "primarily Astrological". I later had JC confirmed as the real
> >deal
> > > > > >  by Billy Jones and Phyllis Kahn, both who were respected Gann
> >experts
> > > > > >  long before anyone had ever heard of a "Bryce". You can also read
> >my
> > > > > >  essay, "What You Need To Know About W.D. Gann"  on this subject
> >which
> > > > > >  was published with a copy of Gann's Soybean chart with
> >Astrological
> > > > > >  indications all over it. As you can see from Kaufman's book, I
> >didn't
> > > > > >  plant those Astrological symbols on the chart. My essay was
> >published
> > > > > >  in Traders's World Magazine circa 1988 and is now offered as part
> >of
> > > > > >  their archive collection. You can check their website,
> > > > > >  <http://www.tradersworld.com> find the archive index, and you
> >will
> > > > > >  see my name in issue #3 for "W.D. Gann and Astrology by Norman
> > > > > >  Winski"..
> > > > > >      So Bryce, I don't expect you to be transformed overnight.
> >But,
> > > > > >  perhaps if you do your homework, sometime in the near future, you
> > > > > >  will realize the errors of your ways and decide to study
> >Astrology. I
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  may even consider accepting you as my student. Then, you may be
> >able
> > > > > >  to honestly call yourself a Gann expert. Let me know how it goes.
> > > > > >       Oh, if you thought the Soybean chart was just a one time
> >fluke,
> > > > > >  I have alot more of Gann's stuff with Astrological references. I
> > > > > >  think you must have missed of few of my posting here. Try not to
> >miss
> > > > > >  class in the future. <G>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Cosmically,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Norman Winski
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  P.S. Bryce, membership in Realtraders is free, if you are a real
> > > > > >  trader. <G> Oh  my gosh! I just checked out Bryce's wavetrader
> > > > > >  website, http://www.wavetrader.com ( nice plug, huh Bryce?) and
> >found
> > > > > >  the following.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  "Planetary Research Module: Programmed into the Software.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >        Bryce's new book gives you the methodology and the software
> > > > > >  gives you the
> > > > > >        ways and means to research the effect of planetary
> >phenomenon
> > > > > >  on
> > > > > >        markets!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >    So Bryce, why are you using Astrology in your trading products
> >and
> > > > > >  then criticizing me for using it? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.
> > > > > >  Case closed!  Bryce, nice joke, guess you were just pullin my
> >chain
> > > > > >  huh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >  From: Bryce Gilmore & Associates bryce-@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  To: RealTraders realtrader-@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 6:30 PM
> > > > > >  Subject: Fw: [RT] Re: Gann the method
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > To Real Traders,
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I hope this is not taken the wrong way by your members - and I
> > > > > >  trust you
> > > > > >  > will publish it to them for the sake of education.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I am not against people who use astrology in the markets - but
> >I
> > > > > >  don't
> > > > > >  know
> > > > > >  > any who do who make any serious money from that angle.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > I got this copy of Norman's email relayed to me so I am not
> >sure
> > > > > >  which bus
> > > > > >  > he is stepping off. But I do know that Gann was not an
> >astrology
> > > > > >  freak
> > > > > >  only
> > > > > >  > an observer of planetary phenomena in relation to natural
> >cycles.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Norman Winski or Norman if you allow me to be personal has a
> >way of
> > > > > >  exciting
> > > > > >  > people into the mysterious, if Norman knows what Gann was about
> >he
> > > > > >  would
> > > > > >  be
> > > > > >  > a little less careless with his statements.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Gann was about using the dynamic action of the market to find
> > > > > >  resistance
> > > > > >  and
> > > > > >  > support, his planetary studies are related to seasonal time
> >periods
> > > > > >  between
> > > > > >  > expected change in trend. When one goes into astrology the
> >options
> > > > > >  become
> > > > > >  > limitless.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > So, my message is this, Anyone who believes Gann is based on
> > > > > >  astrology
> > > > > >  > should stand back and take another look. Teachers such as
> >Norman W
> > > > > >  who
> > > > > >  claim
> > > > > >  > Gann was all about astrology are using you and you will never
> >be
> > > > > >  able to
> > > > > >  > check whether their claims have any validity, cause the
> >astrology
> > > > > >  aspect
> > > > > >  > only repeats about every 25,000 years.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > Hope this is of use to your group.
> > > > > >  > regards,
> > > > > >  > Bryce Gilmore.
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >  > > From: "nwinski" nwinsk-@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  > > To: vaugh00-@xxxxxxx
> > > > > >  > > Cc: realtrader-@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >  > > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 6:59 PM
> > > > > >  > > Subject: Re: [RT] Re: Gann the method
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > > vaugh00-@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > > > Of the several texts that address Gann's methods , which
> >does
> > > > > >  the
> > > > > >  best
> > > > > >  > > job
> > > > > >  > > > > teaching  the subject .  What are the groups thoughts ?
> > > > > >  thanks  tom
> > > > > >  > > vaughan
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >   Tom,
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >      Here is my Gann test. If the teacher doesn't know
> > > > > >  Astrology, they
> > > > > >  > > don't
> > > > > >  > > > know Gann. That should
> > > > > >  > > > eliminate a good portion of the Gann teachers and authors.
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >      Here is my Gann tip. Don't bother trying to learn Gann
> > > > > >  until you
> > > > > >  > have
> > > > > >  > > a
> > > > > >  > > > very good foundation in the basic principles of Astrology.
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >     You are welcome to contact me by private e-mail if you
> >have
> > > > > >  > questions,
> > > > > >  > > want
> > > > > >  > > > more information, or want to share some very funny jokes.
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > > Co(s)mically,
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > > Norman
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > > P.S. You will need a good sense of humor if you want to
> >study
> > > > > >  Gann's
> > > > > >  > > writings.
> > > > > >  > > > He loves to play with
> > > > > >  > > > your brain. <G>
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > > >
> > > > > >  > >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  >
> > > > > >  > [Image]
> > > > > >  >
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