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I left school barely before reaching 18. My first job on a trading
desk was fetching coffees for the other traders and doing their general
grunt work. There was one guy who eventually became my mentor and
gave me some valuable real life lessons treated my like shit for over a
year. Nobody sat me on their knee and read me the abc of trading.
Nobody taught me what a futures contract was. Nobody taught me the
difference between a market and limit order and slippage in a fast market.
Not because they didn't want to - it was the way they learnt and besides
on a bank trading desk, TRADER's DON'T HAVE TIME TO TEACH. (Think
about this statement when a "trader" offers to spend 5 full days lecturing
or teaching privately....). Everything I learnt while on the steepest bit
of that damned learning curve was through watching and asking questions
(at the right time - try asking a trader a question just after an employment
figure.....you're likely to get a half chewed bit of bigmac spat unintentionally
in your direction..... I am speaking from experience here!).
<P>I lived, eat, breathed and slept markets for 2 years (with only 3 days
of vacation & 2 of sick leave) before I was given full responsibility
for a trading book. During my time of working for a bank I generally
arrived at my desk at 6:30am and usually did not leave until after 7pm
(I was in London so I basically arrived at around the time Tokyo was winding
down and stayed until NY was close to going home). During my
2yrs of "tuition" I had 10-15 traders around me from whom I absorbed as
much info as I could; some of whom had been trading for 10+ years.
<P>I am not knocking a formal education - don't get me wrong. I wish
I had gone to University and stuff. What I am saying is that learning
how to trade effectively is a real life experience which can only be taught
through experience itself. That's why I am against approaches
like paper trading for beginners- it just instills a false sense of security,
emphasises reward and downplays risk and losses and the negative effect
losses can have on the psyche and hence on future trades. You can
paper trade, but only to test new strategies while trading for real.<I></I>
<P>Think about when you learnt to drive a car. You probably watched
a parent drive for years before seeking instruction. Then you listened
to the instruction and then you got behind the wheel <I>with the instructor
at your side</I>. You only went out on your own when you were competant
enought to drive by yourself (and of course had your license).
<P>You must be realistic when trying to run up that learning curve. Don't
believe so called guru's if they tell you your performance will be improved
by following his/her methods.
<P>I guess if you are unable to adopt either of the 2 approaches I outlined
in my earlier posting then what I would recommend for a beginner is to
read as much as you can. Not about "trading" per se but about markets
in general. Don't go out and buy a book on how to predict future
turning points in markets or about fractals Get a good book on laymans
economics. Read Market Wizards. Read interviews with the "big
traders". Read about the fixed income markets. Read about currencies.
Read about derivative pricing. Read the "classical texts" such as
Reminicences (sp?). Read Niederhoffers book (even though he went
bust, his book is full of wisdom). And if you want to learn how to
control losses - read a good book of gambling. Learn to play poker.
Read about portfolio management. If you want to learn about technical
analysis - get some of the oldest books you can find - forget those on
the bestseller list. The best traders around at the moment have been
trading for many, many years - they didn't have anywhere near the resources
that are available now and yet they are still the best. Markets do
not change - people do as do their perceptions.
<P>Good learning to all.
<P>E.
<BR>
<P>Lionel Issen wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>There have been relatively very few self made millionaires
with a college
<BR>education. Neither Michael Dell nor Bill Gates have college degrees.
<P>Lionel Issen
<P>-----Original Message-----
<BR>From: Richard Estes <rtestes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>To: metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<BR>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>Date: Thursday, July 16, 1998 1:22 PM
<BR>Subject: Re: Learning how to trade and paying people to divulge their
<BR>"knowhow"
<P>>
<BR>>You sound like the type that came out of the womb trading. There sure
<BR>aren't
<BR>>many of those around.
<BR>>
<BR>>Richard Estes
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>-----Original Message-----
<BR>>From: Essan Soobratty <trader@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>>To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<BR>>metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>>Date: Thursday, July 16, 1998 12:18 PM
<BR>>Subject: Learning how to trade and paying people to divulge their
"knowhow"
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>>It amazes me how many people once they have "decided" that they want
to
<BR>>>trade will then fork out many $$ in an attempt to learn various
<BR>>>techniques.
<BR>>>
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>></BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Thu Jul 16 21:16:10 1998
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Subject: Re: Learning how to trade and paying people to divulge their "knowhow"
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I left school barely before reaching 18. My first job on a trading
desk was fetching coffees for the other traders and doing their general
grunt work. There was one guy who eventually became my mentor and
gave me some valuable real life lessons treated my like shit for over a
year. Nobody sat me on their knee and read me the abc of trading.
Nobody taught me what a futures contract was. Nobody taught me the
difference between a market and limit order and slippage in a fast market.
Not because they didn't want to - it was the way they learnt and besides
on a bank trading desk, TRADER's DON'T HAVE TIME TO TEACH. (Think
about this statement when a "trader" offers to spend 5 full days lecturing
or teaching privately....). Everything I learnt while on the steepest bit
of that damned learning curve was through watching and asking questions
(at the right time - try asking a trader a question just after an employment
figure.....you're likely to get a half chewed bit of bigmac spat unintentionally
in your direction..... I am speaking from experience here!).
<P>I lived, eat, breathed and slept markets for 2 years (with only 3 days
of vacation & 2 of sick leave) before I was given full responsibility
for a trading book. During my time of working for a bank I generally
arrived at my desk at 6:30am and usually did not leave until after 7pm
(I was in London so I basically arrived at around the time Tokyo was winding
down and stayed until NY was close to going home). During my
2yrs of "tuition" I had 10-15 traders around me from whom I absorbed as
much info as I could; some of whom had been trading for 10+ years.
<P>I am not knocking a formal education - don't get me wrong. I wish
I had gone to University and stuff. What I am saying is that learning
how to trade effectively is a real life experience which can only be taught
through experience itself. That's why I am against approaches
like paper trading for beginners- it just instills a false sense of security,
emphasises reward and downplays risk and losses and the negative effect
losses can have on the psyche and hence on future trades. You can
paper trade, but only to test new strategies while trading for real.<I></I>
<P>Think about when you learnt to drive a car. You probably watched
a parent drive for years before seeking instruction. Then you listened
to the instruction and then you got behind the wheel <I>with the instructor
at your side</I>. You only went out on your own when you were competant
enought to drive by yourself (and of course had your license).
<P>You must be realistic when trying to run up that learning curve. Don't
believe so called guru's if they tell you your performance will be improved
by following his/her methods.
<P>I guess if you are unable to adopt either of the 2 approaches I outlined
in my earlier posting then what I would recommend for a beginner is to
read as much as you can. Not about "trading" per se but about markets
in general. Don't go out and buy a book on how to predict future
turning points in markets or about fractals Get a good book on laymans
economics. Read Market Wizards. Read interviews with the "big
traders". Read about the fixed income markets. Read about currencies.
Read about derivative pricing. Read the "classical texts" such as
Reminicences (sp?). Read Niederhoffers book (even though he went
bust, his book is full of wisdom). And if you want to learn how to
control losses - read a good book of gambling. Learn to play poker.
Read about portfolio management. If you want to learn about technical
analysis - get some of the oldest books you can find - forget those on
the bestseller list. The best traders around at the moment have been
trading for many, many years - they didn't have anywhere near the resources
that are available now and yet they are still the best. Markets do
not change - people do as do their perceptions.
<P>Good learning to all.
<P>E.
<BR>
<P>Lionel Issen wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>There have been relatively very few self made millionaires
with a college
<BR>education. Neither Michael Dell nor Bill Gates have college degrees.
<P>Lionel Issen
<P>-----Original Message-----
<BR>From: Richard Estes <rtestes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>To: metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<BR>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>Date: Thursday, July 16, 1998 1:22 PM
<BR>Subject: Re: Learning how to trade and paying people to divulge their
<BR>"knowhow"
<P>>
<BR>>You sound like the type that came out of the womb trading. There sure
<BR>aren't
<BR>>many of those around.
<BR>>
<BR>>Richard Estes
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>-----Original Message-----
<BR>>From: Essan Soobratty <trader@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>>To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>;
<BR>>metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<BR>>Date: Thursday, July 16, 1998 12:18 PM
<BR>>Subject: Learning how to trade and paying people to divulge their
"knowhow"
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>>>It amazes me how many people once they have "decided" that they want
to
<BR>>>trade will then fork out many $$ in an attempt to learn various
<BR>>>techniques.
<BR>>>
<BR>>
<BR>>
<BR>></BLOCKQUOTE>
</HTML>
</x-html>From ???@??? Thu Jul 16 21:15:59 1998
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Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:48:19 -0700
Reply-To: ktata@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sender: owner-realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: P Gumprecht <ktata@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Elliot Wave & Robert Miner (and Kase)
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RTs:
Robert Miner has an "in context" approach to Wave Theory which I have been
recently checking out. He combines it with other techniques. I have not
used it in trading as yet. One thing I do like, is that as opposed to other
Wave freaks, he says that sometimes there is no useful wave count and he
also doesn't bother with convoluted 4th wave correction theories. If it
works, use it, otherwise, give it a miss. I know there are some RTs that
use his work and software, maybe they can comment...
Cynthia Kase also uses Wave in combination with statistical & momentum
indicators. She uses the projections in her GasFax, which NG companies in
the South West use to hedge.
PG
At 05:09 PM 7/16/98 -0500, William L. Mabee wrote:
> Have never tried to trade utilizing Elliot Waves. However, am left
>with "At the Crest " by Robert Prechter. His market prediction certainly
>has amounted to a miss by a mile. Anyone actually use these to trade ? Is
>this methodology better used to predict longer term trends ?
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