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Gerrit,
Read below and you will see that in fact you are being requested to pay
1000.00 to be a Beta tester!
There is a fee for a final product and a fee to be a beta tester both are
below, I have inverted them making the fee for the beta at the top of the
page. And the fee for the product at the bottom. His product includes no
server, so basically what you are paying for is a charting package. Which
brings me to another point: if you go and see the product Olectra Active X
charting you will see what Bob is planning on selling you.
http://www.klg.com/ I am beginning to doubt that Bob has even written a
program! If you have ever seen him type on a keyboard as I have you would
have your doubts too. Read below what one other person says about Bobs
charting package.
Mark Brown
TradeLab seems to be a great product with good charting capabilities. It
seems that TradeLab uses Olectra Chart plotting package (www.klg.com). All
potential future users of TradeLab should have a look at it and download the
demo from the web site. TradeLab will probably have most of the
functionality's of the Olectra Chart demo. The demo includes, real-time
plotting, 3D, candlesticks etc ... with lots of source code example in VB,
C++ and Delphi.
I have built an ActiveX server to crunch numbers and a visualization
interface with olectra chart to see the real time calculation. This product
is very good and has impressive features. You can use it as OCX control or
DLLs and use it in VB, C++ and Delphi (and probably more languages). Sample
code comes with the demo. When I first used it, in less than an hour I
could plot 100,000 candlesticks with few indicators, scrolling bars etc ...
(I used the demo files to help me started).
On the first TradeLab web site most of the charts put on the site came
straight from the demo of Olectra Chart. Olectra Chart is a great tools, you
can do 2D, 3D, 4D graphs, rotate the graphs, scale them, etc ... check
their web site. The features are very impressive and there are no limitation
on the number of bars, candlesticks etc ... I hope that viewing the olectra
chart demo will help potential TradeLab users to see the potential TradeLab
charting capabilities. Bob made a great choice when choosing this package as
the main charting engine.
Good trading.
Regards,
Fabrice Gras
(PhD Maths/Stats)
Gerrit
Look Bob Brickey is one of the slickest guys I have run across. He first
misleads us into thinking that we would have a product release prior to the
Utah Trip "which we didn't"! He then hypes up the Utah training class as
something it isn't! He and especially Dorretta treats us like SHIT when we
"ALL - not just me" complain that class is not on subject and as it was
represented! He then lies about the beta 1 see below, beta 1 is a term now
created by Bob after my exposing him for lying about having beta testers.
One of the most well respected participants (not me) of the Utah class wrote
me personally and told me he had been selected by Bob to be a beta tester.
I kept in touch and he NEVER ever received a beta! Bob kept telling him of
problems with this and problems with that. Well he never got it, so all the
while Bob Brickey kept telling us all that the beta testing was going as
planned ect. I then got suspicious and contacted all of the participants
that were at Utah. None "including the only person who I know of that ever
claimed to have been personally invited by Bob to be a beta tester" of the
participants had a beta! Now doesn't that seem strange? So I expose this
and Bob still claims that this beta is taking place. Bob knew full well
that all of us at Utah were sorely disappointed. Have you seen ANYONE
??????? Who was also there come to Bob's defense ??????? I have invited a
second opinion and have never seen one different that what I have said. In
fact there were other post on the TradeLab list from attendees supporting
what I say. So if you weren't there you have really no grasp of how bad the
whole affair was.
Mark Brown
Jim,
Perhaps I am the thick one. Mark claims that you have to commit yourself to
buy the product before you become a tradelab beta-tester.
However I cannot read this from Bob's statement. So far I can see there is
nothing to pay for the beta unless you finally want the
full product. Perhaps Mark can explain how he came to his conclusion that
Bob is holding potential beta-testers for ransom. Or even
better: Bob could elaborate on his beta pricing policy.
I find this point rather important since Mark's comments on Bob's character
seems to be based on this interpretation.
Gerrit Jacobsen
Gerrit
Gerrit, you are WRONG I am basing my opinions on Bob Brickeys performance or
rather a lack of! Also please examine very carefully the below pricing
structure for the serverless TradLab/Olectra charting package....
Mark Brown
========================================
Bob writes the below, is this not a charge prior to the final release????
As stated before, much more testing needs to be done before the final
product is released. We need testers to do that. Because we need their
help, those willing to test will receive the following special
consideration:
1. The initial license fee will be discounted $750, making it
only $1000.
2. Testers will receive technical support during the test period
on the TLBeta list. However, quarterly license fees will not
begin until the final product is released.
3. Testers will have the opportunity to be part of an on-going
engineering advisory group that will recommend improvements
for new releases.
4. Testers will receive advance information about changes in new
releases and they will be given the opportunity to test and
evaluate new releases before they are released to other users.
A Beta Test application form has been posted at:
http://www.sciapp.com/tradelab/beta.html
It asks questions that will help us determine how the services of those
interested can be best utilized. (Those who know Visual Basic well are
better suited to testing user programming, for instance, while others can
be more productive focusing on other aspects of the product, etc.)
Everyone interested should submit that from, whether they already are on
our list of testers or not, so we can have the benefit of that information
in making decisions.
Applications will be accepted on the basis stated above through Monday,
February 15th. Software will ship Friday, February 19th, to those who
apply and are accepted by that date.
The testers will perform a function that will be very important to the
success of the product and to its value to other users. They will be
trusted with certain inside information. Because of that, we reserve the
right to exclude anyone we think is unqualified to serve in that capacity.
Supplemental Information Mentioned Above
----------------------------------------
The supplemental information about the mail lists and beta testing that
was mentioned above will be posted at various times over the next few
days. We wanted everyone to read this, before reading that information,
so it would be in proper context.
-Bob Brickey
Scientific Approaches
sci@xxxxxxxxxx
Many people already have asked to be Beta 2 testers. They will have
priority in our selection process. However, we can use a few more, so it
isn't too late to join in. I will explain how to apply further below.
More details about the testing that will be accomplished in this next
phase will be sent separately to reduce the length of this message.
License Fees
------------
License fees for the TradeStation/SuperCharts add-on modules listed on our
web site in the past total $3245. A Visual Basic User Program Interface
and other code needed to make TradeLab a self-running program are not
included in that amount.
All those capabilities, except a few unique to use with TradeStation, will
be in the final product. Some are enabled in the current beta test build.
Others will be enabled during Beta 2 testing, as we are ready to test them
and correct problems that are found.
If testing was finished and we were going to charge a single license fee
up front, it would be $3500. However, testing is not finished and we
don't plan to charge a full fee up front.
Inexpensive software usually is licensed for single, full-cost fees.
Licensees generally receive whatever a licensed version includes, plus
limited technical support for a short time. Bug fixes usually are free.
Upgrades are optional at extra cost.
That model works well for inexpensive software. It is not as appropriate
for expensive software. Expensive software often is licensed instead on a
service fee basis, because that plan provides important advantages to both
software developers and users.
If someone pays a full amount initially, they risk a large loss if they
don't like the software. They may be able to get a refund where software
is returned soon after receipt, but aspects they do not like may not be
apparent at first in a complex product. Furthermore, a large initial fee
can be more difficult to pay than small service fees over time.
There is another important consideration. Software developers who make
full charges initially look at new and existing customers differently.
New customers bring new revenue. Existing customers provide little or no
revenue and are expensive to support. It is not surprising to find as
much as possible being spent on finding new customers and as little as
possible being spent on the needs of existing customers.
The service fee plan shifts the self-interest of developers by shifting
their primary source of income. New customers bring only small initial
fees. Most income comes from existing customers. That income continues
only as long as existing customers are satisfied. That gives developers a
strong incentive to keep existing customers satisfied and less incentive
to spend everything possible in a continual search for new customers.
There are other important considerations. Someone who licenses a typical
inexpensive program may have a question or two at first, but they rarely
need much help after that. In contrast, users of highly-programmable
products often have many questions into the future as they try to do a
variety of things they, and possibly no one else, has ever done before.
The cost of supporting users of products like that over the long term is
immense. That especially is true where they are not experienced
programmers or highly trained in the mathematics underlying problems they
are trying to solve.
No matter what support a supplier promises to provide under those
conditions, it isn't economically feasible to provide long-term support
without service fees. Microsoft charges $195 per hour for support
provided by a programmer, rather than someone trained to look for answers
in a frequently asked question database. That rate is typical of the
rates commonly charged to support professional products. Users want
professional help, but software developers can't license a trading product
like I am discussing for a typical single fee and then help customers with
complex applications of that product for years.
These are good reasons to use a service fee plan. However, there are two
offsetting considerations.
Software cannot be used after someone stops paying service fees. That
might not matter in some applications, but a trader who has developed user
programs for TradeLab will not want to be in the position of having to
continue paying fees to use them.
The software business is different than most in that product development
cost is high and the unit cost of production is low. Someone
manufacturing hardware products usually has to fund material and labor
costs during manufacturing, but they generally do not have to fund all the
units they ever will sell before selling the first one.
The high costs and long development times required to create software
causes developers to want to collect full fees up front, so those costs
can be repaid as soon as possible. That is an important reason the
service fee plan is not more common.
We have weighed these considerations in deciding what to do. We also have
considered opinions about these issues that have been expressed in private
discussions with members of this list. We have decided the best plan is a
compromise that provides some advantages of both while reducing the
disadvantages.
We have decided to set an initial fee that is half the amount a single fee
would be and on-going service fees that are half the amount they would be
without an initial fee. On that basis we can allow licensees to continue
using TradeLab if they stop paying service fees. They will lose product
support. They will not receive further upgrades, but they can continue
using whatever they have at that time.
Those who continue paying service fees will receive all TradeLab upgrades
that are released without additional cost. They also will have access to
the SciLink mail list, where advanced methods will be explained and
discussed, and TradeLab application examples will be provided. They also
will have access to password-protected web pages and a password-protected
FTP site where related materials will be posted.
SciLink discussions will be similar to discussions on the former SciLink
list a couple years ago. Few members had software to implement the market
analysis and trading methods discussed at that time. Everyone on the new
SciLink list will have TradeLab. That will make the discussions even more
interesting.
Many former SciLink members are on this list. They will know what I am
describing. However, others will know little or nothing about SciLink.
More information about SciLink will be sent separately within the next few
days to reduce the size of this message. Former SciLink members are
welcome to provide additional explanations and comments if they want.
SciLink will be important, because TradeLab has been designed for
experienced traders who want to go far beyond where most traders go,
rather than for beginners who will blow their accounts in a few weeks and
move on to something else.
Other firms already have that market. We have no interest in it. If we
did, we would want to collect full fees up front and then hope users would
not take too long to discover the truth about their fantasies, so we
wouldn't have to keep supporting them.
We want users to benefit from TradeLab. To benefit, they must use methods
based on sound principles that are relatively unknown to most traders.
Most users will need help accomplishing that. Some may never accomplish
it even with help, but help will make it more likely.
We will not generally provide trading systems on SciLink, though some may
be shown as learning examples. What we will provide is explanation and
discussion of fundamental principles essential to the development of
successful trading methods. (We will explain how to fish, rather than
provide fish.) That is important, because everyone cannot win using the
same method. Each participant should develop their own unique method or
methods based on what they already know and what they will learn.
Because SciLink discussions will be important to the success of most
users, SciLink membership is being bundled with the software license fee.
Membership will be restricted without exception to TradeLab licensees.
Certain TradeLab capabilities will be disabled at various times during
Beta 2 testing to facilitate testing and problem solving. Because of
that, and because we will be busy correcting problems testers find, we
will not regularly participate on SciLink until the final product is
released. However, the SciLink list server is running now and Beta 2
testers will be welcome to use it during the test period.
This will be the fee schedule when the final product is released:
1. Users will pay an initial software license fee $1750.
2. They will pay quarterly service fees of $150 ($50 per month)
that will include:
A. Compensation for the reduced initial fee;
B. SciLink membership; and
C. All TradeLab software upgrades as they are released
without additional charge.
Users will be free to discontinue paying quarterly service fees and keep
what they have at that point. They will not receive further software
upgrades. They will lose SciLink membership. Technical support will be
available after that only at an hourly rate.
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