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When you catch a trend on YM, what do you trail by?
--- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "formulaprimer"
<formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> About 2 months on average.
> KS
> Just trade two mini contracts it is equal to 1 Big Dow contract and
> just exit all the positions at the end of day and re-enter when the
> Big Board opens again. Since the E-mini is electronic it is one of
> the cheapest round turn costs. You should talk to your IB about the
> costs. If you trade the dow correctly even the spikes at night don't
> matter on the mini dow because the gain is already in so the spikes
> don't get near your stop.
> KS.
>
>
> --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "metastkuser"
> <andysmith_999@xxxx> wrote:
> > KS,
> >
> > Yes I'm noticing that mini Dow (YM) is more trendy than e-mini S&P
> > (ES). The nighttime spikes on mini Dow are a problem for position
> > traders so I'm looking at the Big Dow but I'm not sure how suitable
> > the Big Dow is for retail traders -- for example, it is pit-traded
> and
> > I can't use IB for it...
> >
> > How many days-in-trade, on average, was one of your 600 point runs?
> >
> > Do you trade the Big S&P ($250 points)?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andy
> >
> > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "formulaprimer"
> > <formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> > > Dow has veen very trendy the past two years. I've alraady traded
> > > about 6 major trades this year. the prvious year around 8 all
> year
> > > long. The average trade was about 600 points long and short.
> That is
> > > about $3,000.00 per contract on the dow mini and $6,000.00 per
> > > contract on the Big Dow. Just multiply the profit with the
> amount of
> > > contracts and you can see it has been a very good year and a
> half.
> > > KS.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "v" <entinv@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > KS,
> > > >
> > > > As you mentioned good trend trades happen only several times a
> > > year. How
> > > > many trades a year
> > > > do you make on average?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Vladimir
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of
> formulaprimer
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:26 AM
> > > > To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock Group] Using Metastock to trade
> > > FUTURES?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > One more thing. I trade between 1-100 contracts sizes of the
> dow
> > > > mini's. The maximum position one could hold on the minis
> before
> > > > having to declare is 2500 contracts or it could be doubled
> to
> > > 5000
> > > > contracts I haven't checked recently. So it is pretty broad.
> I
> > > still
> > > > use the same money management plan.
> > > > KS.
> > > > example: with 1 lot I test the trend and will handle a
> $250.00
> > > loss.
> > > > With a major trend I will enter 100 lot and will suffer a
> > > $25,000.00
> > > > draw down with a profit to reward ratio of 3:1. I will never
> > > enter a
> > > > large position trade without a 3:1 risk to reward ratio.
> > > Basically
> > > > if i risk $25,000.00 I must return $75,000.00 in profit.
> Keep in
> > > > mind major trend trades happen a several times a year.
> > > > KS.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "formulaprimer"
> > > > <formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > The funds move the market and the commercials hedge the
> market.
> > > > The
> > > > > big money is made by the funds and they trade the Big
> Board.
> > > The
> > > > > mini has too many artificial spikes from overnight trading
> or
> > > > small
> > > > > lot traders getting overdone in a situation. Basically the
> Big
> > > > Board
> > > > > is a more technically sound chart. This is always the case.
> > > > > KS.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "metastkuser"
> > > > > <andysmith_999@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > KS, one more: Why not chart the minis? Why trade by the
> Big
> > > > > Contracts
> > > > > > and enter in the mini contracts?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "formulaprimer"
> > > > > > <formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > I think the dow mini is $5 a point and and the full
> dow
> > > future
> > > > > > > contract is 10$ a point. That is what i go on. 1% of
> of my
> > > > > initial
> > > > > > > margin of $2500 is $25 dollars which is 5 points. This
> is
> > > of
> > > > > course
> > > > > > > when I do random entry technique. Other wise from my
> > > > experience
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > the dow moves more than 50 points against me I usually
> get
> > > > out.
> > > > > That
> > > > > > > is just my experience but it could be different for
> others.
> > > > > > > KS.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "metastkuser"
> > > > > > > <andysmith_999@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > > <formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I trade daily, intraday, or position depending on
> how
> > > the
> > > > > charts
> > > > > > > > > look. The reason I say "no sleep" is that I don't
> put
> > > > stops
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > > because all electronic orders can be viewed by
> other
> > > > traders
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > > > the real time quotes puts them up for everybody to
> see.
> > > > This
> > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > that stops will get picked off. You will
> experience
> > > this
> > > > for
> > > > > > > > > yourself, when it goes down to hit your stop and
> then
> > > > > proceeds
> > > > > > > to go
> > > > > > > > > back up again. Since it is electronic it means
> > > > > instantaneous
> > > > > > > fills
> > > > > > > > > or close to it. When the price hits my loss
> target I
> > > put
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > order
> > > > > > > > > in at the market, This is the stop process the
> Turtles
> > > > made
> > > > > > > famous
> > > > > > > > > and is probably the only thing that is useful from
> what
> > > > they
> > > > > > > > > originally did.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > KS, doesn't hiding your stops only matter if you are
> > > trading
> > > > > very
> > > > > > > > large positions? Also if you are using wider stops
> in the
> > > > case
> > > > > of
> > > > > > > > position trading (say 2 ATRs) then is getting your
> stops
> > > > > picked off
> > > > > > > > still a problem, given the wider stops?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Of course I'm referring to electronic markets of dow
> > > > > > > > > mini and others. I do not trade the pit contracts
> > > unless
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > > > > position trading even then I prefer the
> electronic.
> > > The
> > > > > > > leverage or
> > > > > > > > > granularity you talk about is only relevant if you
> talk
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > risk.
> > > > > > > > > The higher the point value the greater the risk to
> > > reward
> > > > > ratio.
> > > > > > > If
> > > > > > > > > you are beginning i would recommend the dow mini
> > > contract.
> > > > > $5
> > > > > > > > > dollars a point and $2500.00 a contract.
> Volatility
> > > meters
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > price
> > > > > > > > > range can help with money management portion of the
> > > > trading.
> > > > > The
> > > > > > > Dow
> > > > > > > > > market are the easiest to trade because they trade
> in a
> > > > > range
> > > > > > > bound
> > > > > > > > > pattern. Take a look at a historical chart of the
> dow
> > > > > futures
> > > > > > > > > contract. Do not chart the mini. Trade by the Big
> > > > Contracts
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > enter in the mini contracts.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This is a big disconnect for me. Why trade by the Big
> > > > > Contracts and
> > > > > > > > enter in the mini contracts? Why not chart the minis?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > (example of my last trade would be: I shorted the
> mini
> > > sep
> > > > > dow
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > 10700 with a target stop loss of 50 points or
> $250.00
> > > and
> > > > it
> > > > > > > went to
> > > > > > > > > 10734 and collapsed to 10580 which then I exited
> at the
> > > > > market
> > > > > > > > > because it hit trend line support. I checked the
> stop
> > > > orders
> > > > > > > place
> > > > > > > > > at the time the market went to 10734 and the last
> stop
> > > > order
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > > that price 10734, then the market collapsed. So the
> > > > > reasoning is
> > > > > > > > > that if I could see it the big leverage players
> will
> > > move
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > market
> > > > > > > > > to pick off the buy stop and let the market go
> down to
> > > its
> > > > > > > proper
> > > > > > > > > trend.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I see your point. Again, if 10734 was for a small
> number
> > > of
> > > > > > > contracts,
> > > > > > > > the big players may not have walked the index up
> there to
> > > > take
> > > > > out
> > > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > few contracts... but who knows. Your example uses a
> 50
> > > point
> > > > > stop.
> > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > > ATR is around 95 points, so if this was a position
> trade,
> > > > > isn't the
> > > > > > > > stop a bit tight?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >My stop method is from years of experience in this
> > > market
> > > > > > > > > and requires the ability to immediately exit a
> trade
> > > when
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > target
> > > > > > > > > stop loss is hit. It does not matter if it goes
> back
> > > down.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > out. Any change in this money management technique
> will
> > > > > cause
> > > > > > > losses.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, I understand, discipline.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > One quick note : I tested with real money with a
> coin
> > > > flip.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > entered long if it is heads and short if it is
> tails. I
> > > > put
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > stop
> > > > > > > > > loss at 1% or $25.00 or 5 ticks.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I don't follow. 5 ticks is 0.05% of the Dow
> (5/10000).
> > > How
> > > > do
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > get 1%?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > With this money management
> > > > > > > > > technique I was profitable. Basically random
> entry
> > > into
> > > > the
> > > > > > > market
> > > > > > > > > with a proper money management system made it
> > > profitable.
> > > > > > > Trading
> > > > > > > > > is 90% money management 10% technical. I use to
> think
> > > it
> > > > was
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > other way around but it took awhile to figure this
> out.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I completely agree. THanks so much for your
> comments, KS.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > KS.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > --- In
> equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "metastkuser"
> > > > > > > > > <andysmith_999@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > KS,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If you don't mind a few questions:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you daytrade ES and YM or trade multi-day?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2) Do you see any benefit from the added
> granularity
> > > of
> > > > YM
> > > > > > > over ES
> > > > > > > > > > (i.e. YM tick is $1, ES tick is $0.25, but YM is
> 10x
> > > ES
> > > > > which
> > > > > > > means
> > > > > > > > > > ES=$0.25 and YM=$0.10 in apples-to-apples). Does
> YM's
> > > > finer
> > > > > > > > > > granularity allow your stops to be shaken out
> less?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) Leveraging cuts both ways, but e-mini traders
> only
> > > > > speak of
> > > > > > > it's
> > > > > > > > > > goodness (as you are confirming). Why is that?
> Have
> > > you
> > > > > never
> > > > > > > been
> > > > > > > > > > hurt by the high leverage?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 4) "Sleep is not an option because of night
> trading".
> > > > I'm
> > > > > > > assuming
> > > > > > > > > > vigilant stop placement for ES/YM end-of-day
> traders
> > > > > allows
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > sleep?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your help, KS.
> > > > > > > > > > Andy.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "formulaprimer"
> > > > > > > > > > <formulaprimer@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > I can't speak for anybody else but I have been
> > > trading
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > Dow
> > > > > > > > > > > Futures and Dow Mini and S&P mini since it
> began.
> > > Once
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > trade
> > > > > > > > > > > them you will never go back to stocks. It is
> > > because
> > > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > leveraging. All the indexes move in direct
> > > relation
> > > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Stock
> > > > > > > > > > > Market indexes so any long term direction must
> be
> > > done
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > Big
> > > > > > > > > > > Board not the mini's. Be warned the Night
> Trading
> > > > moves
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > market
> > > > > > > > > > > tremendously sometimes and sometimes sleep is
> not
> > > an
> > > > > option.
> > > > > > > > > > > Otherwise if your technical analysis is at a
> high
> > > > level
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > > > > like it. August issue of Futures magazine I
> think
> > > has
> > > > a
> > > > > good
> > > > > > > > > article
> > > > > > > > > > > on options.
> > > > > > > > > > > KS.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "metastkuser"
> > > > > > > > > > > <andysmith_999@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for taking the time to answer my
> > > > questions.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > In your experience, how would you compare
> trading
> > > > the
> > > > > > > index
> > > > > > > > > versus
> > > > > > > > > > > > trading the futures? For example, trading ES
> vs.
> > > > SPX,
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > NQ vs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > QQQQ,... I know the leverage is very
> different,
> > > but
> > > > > > > besides
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > > > > > has your experience been?
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard that once a trader moves from
> > > > > stocks/indexes
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > futures,
> > > > > > > > > > > > they never return to stocks...
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "v"
> > > > > <entinv@xxxx>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From my experience future always track the
> > > index.
> > > > > For
> > > > > > > > > example
> > > > > > > > > > > > either you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > trade QQQQ or NQ
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the only real difference is the leverage.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Comparing futures to equities if you mean
> > > > individual
> > > > > > > stocks,
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > future
> > > > > > > > > > > > > never goes bankrupt therefore it's
> > > > > > > > > > > > > safer to buy. Futures, both commodities
> and
> > > > indexes
> > > > > > > appear
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > better comply
> > > > > > > > > > > > > with the technical analysis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > studies in comparison with individual
> stocks.
> > > > Many
> > > > > > > > > individual
> > > > > > > > > > > > stocks are
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not liquid enough to trade and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > those most liquid would track corresponding
> > > > > > > industry/group
> > > > > > > > > > > indexes.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Never heard about Track N TRade before.
> Looks
> > > > > > > interesting
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
> > > Behalf
> > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > metastkuser
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 11:56 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock Group] Using
> > > > > Metastock to
> > > > > > > > > trade
> > > > > > > > > > > FUTURES?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > "It doesn't provide continuous
> contracts, but
> > > > for
> > > > > ES
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > YM
> > > > > > > > > > > you can
> > > > > > > > > > > > > use SPY/SPX and DIA/DJI if you need
> longer
> > > term
> > > > > > > picture."
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- yes, it occured to me that I can
> use SPX
> > > > > instead
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > ES,
> > > > > > > > > > > and DIA
> > > > > > > > > > > > > instead of YM. But, does the future
> always
> > > track
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > index?
> > > > > > > > > > > Wouldn't
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the future move much faster than the
> index if
> > > > the
> > > > > > > index
> > > > > > > > > made a
> > > > > > > > > > > sudden
> > > > > > > > > > > > > large move?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you like trading futures compared
> to
> > > > > equities?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > By the way, have you heard of Track N
> Trade
> > > for
> > > > > > > > > backtesting
> > > > > > > > > > > futures?
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "v"
> > > > > > > <entinv@xxxx>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > For EOD futures I'm using HSQuote from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.downloadjunction.com/product/software/4358/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't provide continuous
> contracts,
> > > but
> > > > for
> > > > > ES
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > YM
> > > > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > > can use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPY/SPX and DIA/DJI if you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > need longer term picture.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Intraday I'm using MetaServer RT for
> > > > > > > Interactivebrokers.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't trade options on futures.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> > > > Behalf
> > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > > > metastkuser
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 8:18
> PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock Group]
> Using
> > > > > > > Metastock to
> > > > > > > > > > > trade
> > > > > > > > > > > > FUTURES?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you don't mind answering a couple
> of
> > > > > questions:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) I'm only interested in S&P 500 e-
> mini
> > > > (ES)
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > mini-
> > > > > > > > > Dow
> > > > > > > > > > > > (YM). I use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reuters for stock/indices end-of-day
> > > data. I
> > > > > don't
> > > > > > > > > want to
> > > > > > > > > > > pay
> > > > > > > > > > > > for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > omplete futures eod package. Do you
> know
> > > > where
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > > > > > eod
> > > > > > > > > > > > data for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > just ES and YM?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Options on futures. I currently
> trade
> > > > > options
> > > > > > > credit
> > > > > > > > > > > > spreads on SPX
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and would like to try credit spreads
> on
> > > ES
> > > > and
> > > > > YM.
> > > > > > > Do
> > > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > > trade
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > options on futures? Can Metastock
> support
> > > > this?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In
> > > equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "v"
> > > > > > > > > <entinv@xxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I do.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vladimir
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From:
> equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> [mailto:equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > On
> > > > > Behalf
> > > > > > > Of
> > > > > > > > > > > metastkuser
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005
> 5:53
> > > PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To:
> equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [EquisMetaStock Group]
> Using
> > > > > > > Metastock to
> > > > > > > > > > > trade
> > > > > > > > > > > > FUTURES?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone using MS to trade futures?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS Business finance
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> > > >
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> business
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> > > > Business finance consultant Business finance
> magazine
> > > Business
> > > > finance schools
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> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
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