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Brian,
I was just curious, do you actually trade?
Dave
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx> wrote:
>
> Howard is on the record as saying something to the effect
> that "designing our own systems, using an objective function, takes
> care of the psychological aspects of trading (eliminates them?)".
>
> Barry has recently said the same thing about AT, in this forum, as
> does Herman today.
>
> A lot of people would agree with that.
> It is a positive belief, and simplicity personified so it meets my
> personal criteria on those two counts.
>
> I dare say it is an argument that may well win the day.
>
> Personally I have an open mind on the subject.
>
> I wonder, however, if 'we' are free from psychological factors when
> we make our decision to AT in the first place OR when we are
> comfortably sleeping while our computer trades our account for us OR
> when we categorise people who don't autotrade as "living in the last
> millenium"?
>
> > Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that stuff
> > I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade.
>
> I didn't advocate it as a pre-requisite.
> I am not aware of anyone who has, although I think there are a few
> out there who do (I seem to recall that some of the fathers
> of 'Positive Thinking' were devout Christians though).
>
> To focus the discussion a little more ....
>
> Mark Douglas "Trading In The Zone" is a well read book (?) and
> probably the source of the term "in the zone" that seems to have
> found its way into the traders lexicon.
>
> To quote:
>
> "The essence of what it means to be in "the zone" is that your
> mind and the market are in sync. As a result, you sense what the
> market
> is about to do as if there is no separation between yourself and the
> collective consciousness of everyone else participating in the market.
> The zone is a mental space where you are doing more than just reading
> the collective mind, you are also in complete harmony with it."
>
> This is the point we are debating isn't it?
>
> I am still thinking about that one but to set the record straight (to
> help the traders who are interested in this viewpoint).
>
> I said that this is very similar to intuition (refer to your Webster
> dictionary and you will see what I mean).
>
> I have some personal experience with intuition so I feel qualified to
> comment.
> It is a normal psychological function, that a significant percentage
> of the population have, but it is often not that well used or
> understood by them because it is kept suppressed in our culture.
>
> Since inituiton is in fact the 4th, out of 7 levels of consciousness
> that we are capable of experiencing (levels that in the past have
> only been experienced temporarily or by accident, drugs or spiritual
> practices) I went on to fill in some contextual information about it.
>
> Definitely the intuitive faculties can be enhanced - the fact of
> being aware of them and using them will strengthen them just like
> excersing with an atrophied muscle.
>
> I am not that certain about its applicability to trading.
>
> There are no scientific studies, on the subject, that I am aware of
> and IMO it is a subjective judgement that the proponents of this
> style are making.
>
> Jan disgreed with me, that intuition was the faculty that some
> traders claim they use, so I went on to point out that it would be
> much more common, and easy, for succesful traders to program their
> subconscious mind by focus (removing trading distractions, keeping it
> simple), isolating the key skills and practising them repetitively
> (pracise makes perfect).
>
> IMO that is what a lot of traders do, whether they know it or not.
>
> I then pointed out that this was not using the intuition, or any
> special state of consciousness above and beyond the lower three
> (mind, emotion, body).
>
> The reason I did that is because if people are going to 'use' these
> advanced psychological techniques they should learn something about
> what they are doing and not get them mixed up or use a technique that
> isn't applicable for that level of the psyche.
>
> So, to be clear about it:
>
> I am advocating positively programming the trading alter ego since it
> is safe, effective and achieveable by all (it doesn't rely on
> the 'doubtful' intuition or require any hard to acquire knowledge or
> particularly difficult practices).
>
> I don't know how this applies to people who move to AT.
> It definitely isn't as relevant.
> Perhaps they feel their computer is the 'postively programmed trading
> alter ego' and that it can do a better job of it than they can do
> themselves.
>
> You will have to ask them about the psychology of AT trading but as I
> said already they will probably say there is no such thing.
>
> brian_z
>
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "dave_88_1961" dave_88_1961@
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that spirituality,
> psychology,
> > philosophy, Indian spiritual philosophy,
> >
> > God, yoga, meditation, prayer, singing/chanting, dancing, spiritual
> > practices,
> >
> > temporary intimacy with the Gods, psyhic powers, Western
> spirituality,
> > and spiritual teachings,
> >
> > I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade. Am I alone on
> this
> > or is this the way everybody trades in the new millennium ?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@> wrote:
> >
> > > FTR
> > > I don't know how people can tranlate this into applied Trading
> > > Psychology but to set the record straight.
> > >
> > > Re the relevance of spirituality/personal development to trading:
> > >
> > > Using Indian spiritual philosophy as the example.
> > >
> > > There is no single philosophy but rather a myriad of inter-related
> > > and sometimes conflicting ones.
> > > However, as a generalisation, the ideals of Indian spirituality
> are
> > > passive (to a Westerner) and can be summarised as:
> > >
> > > - Man is a small replica of God (potentially)
> > > - the goal is to sublimate the mind of Man to the mind of God
> (Yoga
> > > is the union of Man-God)
> > > - various practices are used to faclitate this (meditation,
> prayer,
> > > singing/chanting, dancing etc)
> > > - permanancy of the union is a long and difficult goal, seldom
> > > achieved
> > > - temporary intimacy with the Gods, achieved via spiritual
> practices,
> > > TRANSFORMS the practitioner and hence their culture
> > > - psyhic powers (Siddhi) are a byproduct and considered a
> distraction
> > > and/or dangerous
> > > - worldly success is considered somewhat of lesser value than
> > > spiritual success
> > >
> > > "From the Unreal lead me to the Real".
> > >
> > > Once again these are gross simplifications which have been
> vigorously
> > > debated for thousands of years.
> > >
> > > Western spirituality is active.
> > > We seek to "petition the Lord" to intervene in our lifes/culture
> and
> > > to give us the Power(s), ostensibly to do his work.
> > >
> > > In both cases the spiritual path is the same, except that the
> > > emphasis is different, however all variations on the theme are
> > > operative in both cultures, via their sub-cultures.
> > >
> > >
> > > Applying this to trading:
> > >
> > > Will adopting spiritual practices, say meditation, or prayer,
> make me
> > > a better trader?
> > >
> > > Is there any correspondence between the transcendental
> consciousness
> > > of meditation/prayer and the mindset that successful traders have
> > > (assuming there is such a thing as a common identifiable traders
> > > mindset)?
> > >
> > > Possibly.
> > >
> > > In my own experience, if I had any advantages in this area when I
> > > started out trading i.e. I did "know myself" before I started
> > > trading, I still had to get to know the markets, TA, my broker,
> data
> > > provider and software etc as well.
> > >
> > >
> > > Re 'Positive Thinking' and 'The Power of The Mind'
> > >
> > > This has been borrowed from spiritual teachings (power of Prayer
> etc).
> > >
> > > This is an application of a limited part of spirituality, and
> without
> > > the attendant ethics etc it can bring about Worldly Success but
> that
> > > doesn't neccessarily equate to Life Success i.e. it is a partial
> > > spiritual practice without the full experience or spiritual
> knowledge.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there a mindset that successful traders have (as claimed by
> Mark
> > > Douglas "In The Trading Zone")?
> > >
> > > Possibly, or Mark could have just found a good way to make some
> money
> > > OR be projecting his personal needs/worldview onto the trading
> world.
> > >
> > > As a hypothesis (a lot of traders say that trading changed the way
> > > they think i.e trading changed THEM).
> > >
> > > In my experience we tend to:
> > >
> > > - spend more and more time alone in the trading room
> > > - spend less and less time 'socialising'
> > > - spend long hours focused on single issues
> > > - our trading rooms are sensory deprived environments
> > > - undertake intensive problem solving/creative tasks
> > > - are confronted by our extreme emotional states etc
> > >
> > > It is possible that intense traders could eperience trading as
> > > personally transformative under those conditions and that they do
> > > experience, or even cultivate, altered consciousness (to some
> extent)
> > > while actively engaged in trading.
> > >
> > > Based on the above is there anything we can do to facilitate
> trading
> > > success?
> > >
> > > Sticking my neck out I predict super succesful traders would have
> > > some of the following habits/qualities:
> > >
> > > - they use positive thinking, either consciously or otherwise
> (they
> > > almost certainly set goals)
> > > - they have self-confidence or self-esteem (if they don't have it
> > > when they start out they acquire it)
> > > - they are psychologically mature & comfortable in their skins
> > > (through other life experiences - not necessarily only acquired
> > > through academic success)
> > > - at some time in their life they have read or thought about the
> > > psychology of life/trading but it is not really a prominent part
> of
> > > their daily thinking (they tend to do it rather than think about
> it)
> > > - they are not very concerned with defining their style or over
> > > defining their trading
> > > - they have rituals (the way the office is setup, the time of the
> day
> > > they do certain things) and they do things in order (download
> data,
> > > scan, add to watchlist etc )
> > > - they have one trade that they do over and over (probably they
> have
> > > some spare trades up their sleeve)
> > > - they have practised their one trade over and over (like a golf
> > > swing == 10000 repetitions)
> > > - they will be biased to simplicity and only add complexity where
> > > they are forced to
> > > - if they have more than one trade they will use it in a different
> > > time and place (unless it is part of a portfolio approach)
> > > - they don't consider their trade perfect i.e. others might have
> > > something better but it works for them and they are satisfied
> with it
> > > - their trade is very personal (like a favourite son or daughter)
> > > - possibly they don't like to talk about trading, even the
> extroverts
> > > probably become trading introverts (the trading ego is like an
> alter
> > > ego that they put on and take off as they enter and leave the
> trading
> > > room)
> > > - they don't like interruptions while trading
> > > - trading talk is noise to them
> > > - they are not as interested in buying things as they used to be
> > > except stuff for their trading environment (new computers,
> software
> > > etc)
> > >
> > > Anybody recognise themselves in there anywhere?
> > >
> > > On a slightly different note:
> > >
> > > It is rather funny logic that we would think that all of the
> traders
> > > who are 'in the zone' are discretionary traders and that all of
> the
> > > other traders don't have the right stuff OR that there is only
> > > discretionary trading versus mechanical trading.
> > >
> > > Anyway, any trader who is consistently successful has the right
> > > mindset even if they/we can't define it.
> > >
> > > BTW I am not an authority on anything I just aim to share some
> > > opinions that others may find authoritive if there is any truth in
> > > them.
> > >
> > > brian_z *:-)
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" brian_z111@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jan,
> > > >
> > > > 100,000 repetitions indeed!
> > > >
> > > > Quite correct.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > However on the subject of 'mindNOT' and Samadhi etc.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of misconceptions floating around in the
> > > west/modern
> > > > culture, on these subjects, because of the mis-interpretation of
> > > the
> > > > spiritual tenents of our BROTHERS OF THE EAST by unqualified and
> > > > unauthorised 'teachers'.
> > > >
> > > > There is a dirth of true spiritual teachers in the West, for
> > > reasons
> > > > that I won't go into.
> > > >
> > > > You are mixing up two different principles.
> > > >
> > > > In symbolic terms:
> > > >
> > > > CONSCIOUSNESS wears the CROWN.
> > > > The objective NOT is the subjective ALL (THE LOGOS).
> > > >
> > > > You are confusing the "Son of God" with our "Heavenly Father"
> > > >
> > > > In general Kharma Yoga is the method for the west/modern
> culture ==
> > > > the SOUL as an active principle == GOOD WORKS
> > > >
> > > > Pragmatically:
> > > >
> > > > Don't be concerned about NoMind - it is not for most of us - a
> very
> > > > abstract subject beyond the ken of the majority.
> > > >
> > > > NoMind != mindlessness
> > > >
> > > > You can't achieve it because it is not there to be achieved in
> the
> > > > way that you are conceiving it.
> > > >
> > > > Intuition is what we should be concerned with.
> > > >
> > > > Intuition is not mind reading OR an inferior psychic faculty
> i.e.
> > > > inferior to the Concete Mind (objective logic).
> > > > It is not the sixth sense, although we experience it as if it
> is.
> > > > It should be more correctly known as super-rationality.
> > > > It is our higher mind (also know as the Higher Self, the
> OverSoul,
> > > > The Solar Angel, Abstract Mind, Manas).
> > > > It bridges the gap between Heaven and Earth.
> > > >
> > > > In trading it is most appropriately used along the lines
> > > of 'positive
> > > > thinking', the 'power of the mind', 'untapped levels of
> > > > consciousness' etc which is the popular form of it in the USA
> where
> > > > it is a pseudo-religion (the reason for that is that it is so
> > > aligned
> > > > to the methods that are appropriate for the times).
> > > >
> > > > These methods are safe to use but it is very unfortunate if the
> > > > admonition to do GOOD WORKS doesn't accompany them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In your case; you and your trading are working well and if it
> ain't
> > > > broke don't fix it.
> > > >
> > > > Forget your search for the spiritual Holy Grail of NoMind -
> that is
> > > > an impossible dream because it doesn't exist.
> > > >
> > > > I wouldn't worry about your personal spiritual welfare - you
> seem
> > > to
> > > > be sitting quite pretty.
> > > >
> > > > brian_z *:-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Jan Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, I had 6 years of martial arts training, where I
> understood
> > > > (but
> > > > > unfortunately not yet attained) the principle of "no-mind"
> when
> > > > executing
> > > > > tasks. I have also had some limited time as a military
> > > instructor,
> > > > and it
> > > > > became obvious that during patrol and combat, when people
> fire at
> > > > you
> > > > > (blanks and smoke grenades, but still), there ones who make it
> > > are
> > > > the ones
> > > > > who do not take the time to think.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However, ones ability to enter this state of mind is
> dependent on
> > > > having
> > > > > enough training so that you subconsciously know that you
> really
> > > do
> > > > not have
> > > > > to think about how to move and shoot properly.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Of the Tekki Shodan pattern, the ancient warriors said
> something
> > > to
> > > > the
> > > > > effect of "Most patterns require at least 10 000 executions
> > > before
> > > > being
> > > > > mastered. However, you should not even consider demonstrating
> > > Tekki
> > > > Shodan
> > > > > to your master before you have had 100 000 repetitions."
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It is interesting to note that to reach the original state of
> > > mind
> > > > while
> > > > > carrying out un-natural activities, you do need lots of
> training,
> > > > and that
> > > > > some things in every field are a lot more difficult than the
> > > > average task in
> > > > > that skill set.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards / JM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _____
> > > > >
> > > > > Från: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > För
> > > > > brian_z111
> > > > > Skickat: den 1 augusti 2008 05:32
> > > > > Till: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Ämne: Re: SV: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Semantics plays a part in any discussion, especially when we
> are
> > > > > crossing cultures etc. It plays a greater role in 'spiritual'
> > > > > discussion than it does in any other.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, first the semantics.
> > > > >
> > > > > We are not limited to the term 'spirituality' as we can talk
> > > around
> > > > > the same area in many different terms (objective
> mind/subjective
> > > > > mind, rational/intuitive, super-consciousness, super-
> rationality
> > > > the
> > > > > collective unconscious, God, the Soul, the Divine, the Supreme
> > > and
> > > > > millions more).
> > > > >
> > > > > For ease of discussion I will stick with 'spirituality'.
> > > > >
> > > > > A few basic points:
> > > > >
> > > > > - generally the 'spiritual gene' is latent in humanity, across
> > > all
> > > > > cultures
> > > > > - it is more virile in a small %
> > > > > - it is particularly latent in the West/modern culture where
> we
> > > > have
> > > > > turned our back on our spirituality
> > > > > - I dare say this forum has more than its share of latent
> > > > > spirituality under the surface
> > > > > - the psychic opposites are not antagonistic forces e.g. soul
> > > > versus
> > > > > body but rather a complimentary whole so that is not a matter
> of
> > > > > logic/programming trading versus intuitive/discretionary
> trading.
> > > > We
> > > > > are all using both, at different times and places, even those
> who
> > > > > deny it (there is no such thing as a 100% objective/rational
> > > > person).
> > > > > - a healthy psyche has a good balance and flows between each
> > > > psychic
> > > > > pole in its own season.
> > > > >
> > > > > The main pragmatic points:
> > > > >
> > > > > - we can't bootstrap our subjective mind so we have to turn to
> > > > > mentors for written or oral teaching
> > > > > - some have more aptitude for it than others
> > > > > - I was very priviliged to have some experience in these
> matters
> > > > long
> > > > > before I started trading (my subjective consciousness/soul was
> > > > > already active and able to express itself in the world) but it
> > > > still
> > > > > took years of pragmatic, practical, objective work
> to 'program'
> > > the
> > > > > trading mind to match i.e. I had to pass a sufficient number
> of
> > > > > exams, in the core units, at the 'University of Trading',
> before
> > > I
> > > > > could 'enter the trading zone'.
> > > > >
> > > > > In laymans terms, my intuitive mind was functioning but I
> still
> > > had
> > > > > to go out and tediously train my rational/objective mind, and
> > > learn
> > > > > as many of the objective rules of trading as I could, before
> the
> > > > > subjective and the objective minds could synchronize in the
> > > trading
> > > > > room.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Give unto Caeser that which is Caesers AND give homage to
> your
> > > > God".
> > > > >
> > > > > brian_z
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > ps.com, "Jan
> > > > > Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I sometimes daytrade using even delayed data for the charts,
> > > and
> > > > a
> > > > > list
> > > > > > compiled list stored in my broker's web application. It
> works
> > > > > alright. Most
> > > > > > of the time I do short-to-mid-term swing trading. With just
> the
> > > > 15-
> > > > > min
> > > > > > delayed data. Ok, real-time for the indexes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's my opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The three components that determine your success are
> usually:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1. Level of analysis. How good you can produce low-risk
> entries
> > > > > with a
> > > > > > probable future outcome, which of course is never totally
> > > > possible.
> > > > > > 2. Level of money management. How much you bet on one single
> > > > > trade, how
> > > > > > well you scale in, scale out, set and stick to stop-orders,
> and
> > > > > more.
> > > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment. How much you have
> attained the
> > > > > > "no-mind" state of the ancient warriors and spiritually
> > > achieved
> > > > > people.
> > > > > > Which means that you fearlessly execute trades while
> > > maintaining a
> > > > > > risk-appropriate behavior. Only really possible when you no
> > > > longer
> > > > > fear the
> > > > > > horrible market and what it might do to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which one is most important? The one you lack the most at
> the
> > > > > moment. I was
> > > > > > fortunate to start out with fairly solid money management
> from
> > > > the
> > > > > start.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards / JM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > ps.com
> > > > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > ps.com]
> > > > > On Behalf
> > > > > > Of Louis P.
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 July 2008 2:15 PM
> > > > > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > ps.com
> > > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was only wondering... Anyone actually making money or
> making
> > > a
> > > > > living
> > > > > > with AB and trading?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've been working on ideas and plans for over 7 months now
> and
> > > > > didn't find
> > > > > > anything convincing yet. I've been searching daily data,
> then
> > > > > hourly,
> > > > > > 15-minute and now I am into 1-minute data and nothing seems
> > > > > satisfying.
> > > > > > Been searching RSI, MFI, ADX, MA, HHV, LLV... nothing seems
> to
> > > > work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So... Anyone is making consistent money with this, and if
> so,
> > > at
> > > > > which
> > > > > > timeframe and how do you do it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm beginning to think about switching to tick database; it
> > > seems
> > > > > even
> > > > > > 1-minute is too slow for intraday trading. Anyone making
> money
> > > > with
> > > > > > 1-minute?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Louis
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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