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Yes.
It's not a hobby.
brian_z
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "dave_88_1961" <dave_88_1961@xxx>
wrote:
>
>
> Brian,
>
> I was just curious, do you actually trade?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@> wrote:
> >
> > Howard is on the record as saying something to the effect
> > that "designing our own systems, using an objective function,
takes
> > care of the psychological aspects of trading (eliminates them?)".
> >
> > Barry has recently said the same thing about AT, in this forum, as
> > does Herman today.
> >
> > A lot of people would agree with that.
> > It is a positive belief, and simplicity personified so it meets my
> > personal criteria on those two counts.
> >
> > I dare say it is an argument that may well win the day.
> >
> > Personally I have an open mind on the subject.
> >
> > I wonder, however, if 'we' are free from psychological factors
when
> > we make our decision to AT in the first place OR when we are
> > comfortably sleeping while our computer trades our account for us
OR
> > when we categorise people who don't autotrade as "living in the
last
> > millenium"?
> >
> > > Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that stuff
> > > I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade.
> >
> > I didn't advocate it as a pre-requisite.
> > I am not aware of anyone who has, although I think there are a few
> > out there who do (I seem to recall that some of the fathers
> > of 'Positive Thinking' were devout Christians though).
> >
> > To focus the discussion a little more ....
> >
> > Mark Douglas "Trading In The Zone" is a well read book (?) and
> > probably the source of the term "in the zone" that seems to have
> > found its way into the traders lexicon.
> >
> > To quote:
> >
> > "The essence of what it means to be in "the zone" is that your
> > mind and the market are in sync. As a result, you sense what the
> > market
> > is about to do as if there is no separation between yourself and
the
> > collective consciousness of everyone else participating in the
market.
> > The zone is a mental space where you are doing more than just
reading
> > the collective mind, you are also in complete harmony with it."
> >
> > This is the point we are debating isn't it?
> >
> > I am still thinking about that one but to set the record straight
(to
> > help the traders who are interested in this viewpoint).
> >
> > I said that this is very similar to intuition (refer to your
Webster
> > dictionary and you will see what I mean).
> >
> > I have some personal experience with intuition so I feel
qualified to
> > comment.
> > It is a normal psychological function, that a significant
percentage
> > of the population have, but it is often not that well used or
> > understood by them because it is kept suppressed in our culture.
> >
> > Since inituiton is in fact the 4th, out of 7 levels of
consciousness
> > that we are capable of experiencing (levels that in the past have
> > only been experienced temporarily or by accident, drugs or
spiritual
> > practices) I went on to fill in some contextual information about
it.
> >
> > Definitely the intuitive faculties can be enhanced - the fact of
> > being aware of them and using them will strengthen them just like
> > excersing with an atrophied muscle.
> >
> > I am not that certain about its applicability to trading.
> >
> > There are no scientific studies, on the subject, that I am aware
of
> > and IMO it is a subjective judgement that the proponents of this
> > style are making.
> >
> > Jan disgreed with me, that intuition was the faculty that some
> > traders claim they use, so I went on to point out that it would be
> > much more common, and easy, for succesful traders to program their
> > subconscious mind by focus (removing trading distractions,
keeping it
> > simple), isolating the key skills and practising them repetitively
> > (pracise makes perfect).
> >
> > IMO that is what a lot of traders do, whether they know it or not.
> >
> > I then pointed out that this was not using the intuition, or any
> > special state of consciousness above and beyond the lower three
> > (mind, emotion, body).
> >
> > The reason I did that is because if people are going to 'use'
these
> > advanced psychological techniques they should learn something
about
> > what they are doing and not get them mixed up or use a technique
that
> > isn't applicable for that level of the psyche.
> >
> > So, to be clear about it:
> >
> > I am advocating positively programming the trading alter ego
since it
> > is safe, effective and achieveable by all (it doesn't rely on
> > the 'doubtful' intuition or require any hard to acquire knowledge
or
> > particularly difficult practices).
> >
> > I don't know how this applies to people who move to AT.
> > It definitely isn't as relevant.
> > Perhaps they feel their computer is the 'postively programmed
trading
> > alter ego' and that it can do a better job of it than they can do
> > themselves.
> >
> > You will have to ask them about the psychology of AT trading but
as I
> > said already they will probably say there is no such thing.
> >
> > brian_z
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "dave_88_1961" dave_88_1961@
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that spirituality,
> > psychology,
> > > philosophy, Indian spiritual philosophy,
> > >
> > > God, yoga, meditation, prayer, singing/chanting, dancing,
spiritual
> > > practices,
> > >
> > > temporary intimacy with the Gods, psyhic powers, Western
> > spirituality,
> > > and spiritual teachings,
> > >
> > > I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade. Am I alone
on
> > this
> > > or is this the way everybody trades in the new millennium ?
> > >
> > > Dave
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > FTR
> > > > I don't know how people can tranlate this into applied Trading
> > > > Psychology but to set the record straight.
> > > >
> > > > Re the relevance of spirituality/personal development to
trading:
> > > >
> > > > Using Indian spiritual philosophy as the example.
> > > >
> > > > There is no single philosophy but rather a myriad of inter-
related
> > > > and sometimes conflicting ones.
> > > > However, as a generalisation, the ideals of Indian
spirituality
> > are
> > > > passive (to a Westerner) and can be summarised as:
> > > >
> > > > - Man is a small replica of God (potentially)
> > > > - the goal is to sublimate the mind of Man to the mind of God
> > (Yoga
> > > > is the union of Man-God)
> > > > - various practices are used to faclitate this (meditation,
> > prayer,
> > > > singing/chanting, dancing etc)
> > > > - permanancy of the union is a long and difficult goal, seldom
> > > > achieved
> > > > - temporary intimacy with the Gods, achieved via spiritual
> > practices,
> > > > TRANSFORMS the practitioner and hence their culture
> > > > - psyhic powers (Siddhi) are a byproduct and considered a
> > distraction
> > > > and/or dangerous
> > > > - worldly success is considered somewhat of lesser value than
> > > > spiritual success
> > > >
> > > > "From the Unreal lead me to the Real".
> > > >
> > > > Once again these are gross simplifications which have been
> > vigorously
> > > > debated for thousands of years.
> > > >
> > > > Western spirituality is active.
> > > > We seek to "petition the Lord" to intervene in our
lifes/culture
> > and
> > > > to give us the Power(s), ostensibly to do his work.
> > > >
> > > > In both cases the spiritual path is the same, except that the
> > > > emphasis is different, however all variations on the theme are
> > > > operative in both cultures, via their sub-cultures.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Applying this to trading:
> > > >
> > > > Will adopting spiritual practices, say meditation, or prayer,
> > make me
> > > > a better trader?
> > > >
> > > > Is there any correspondence between the transcendental
> > consciousness
> > > > of meditation/prayer and the mindset that successful traders
have
> > > > (assuming there is such a thing as a common identifiable
traders
> > > > mindset)?
> > > >
> > > > Possibly.
> > > >
> > > > In my own experience, if I had any advantages in this area
when I
> > > > started out trading i.e. I did "know myself" before I started
> > > > trading, I still had to get to know the markets, TA, my
broker,
> > data
> > > > provider and software etc as well.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Re 'Positive Thinking' and 'The Power of The Mind'
> > > >
> > > > This has been borrowed from spiritual teachings (power of
Prayer
> > etc).
> > > >
> > > > This is an application of a limited part of spirituality, and
> > without
> > > > the attendant ethics etc it can bring about Worldly Success
but
> > that
> > > > doesn't neccessarily equate to Life Success i.e. it is a
partial
> > > > spiritual practice without the full experience or spiritual
> > knowledge.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Is there a mindset that successful traders have (as claimed by
> > Mark
> > > > Douglas "In The Trading Zone")?
> > > >
> > > > Possibly, or Mark could have just found a good way to make
some
> > money
> > > > OR be projecting his personal needs/worldview onto the trading
> > world.
> > > >
> > > > As a hypothesis (a lot of traders say that trading changed
the way
> > > > they think i.e trading changed THEM).
> > > >
> > > > In my experience we tend to:
> > > >
> > > > - spend more and more time alone in the trading room
> > > > - spend less and less time 'socialising'
> > > > - spend long hours focused on single issues
> > > > - our trading rooms are sensory deprived environments
> > > > - undertake intensive problem solving/creative tasks
> > > > - are confronted by our extreme emotional states etc
> > > >
> > > > It is possible that intense traders could eperience trading as
> > > > personally transformative under those conditions and that
they do
> > > > experience, or even cultivate, altered consciousness (to some
> > extent)
> > > > while actively engaged in trading.
> > > >
> > > > Based on the above is there anything we can do to facilitate
> > trading
> > > > success?
> > > >
> > > > Sticking my neck out I predict super succesful traders would
have
> > > > some of the following habits/qualities:
> > > >
> > > > - they use positive thinking, either consciously or otherwise
> > (they
> > > > almost certainly set goals)
> > > > - they have self-confidence or self-esteem (if they don't
have it
> > > > when they start out they acquire it)
> > > > - they are psychologically mature & comfortable in their skins
> > > > (through other life experiences - not necessarily only
acquired
> > > > through academic success)
> > > > - at some time in their life they have read or thought about
the
> > > > psychology of life/trading but it is not really a prominent
part
> > of
> > > > their daily thinking (they tend to do it rather than think
about
> > it)
> > > > - they are not very concerned with defining their style or
over
> > > > defining their trading
> > > > - they have rituals (the way the office is setup, the time of
the
> > day
> > > > they do certain things) and they do things in order (download
> > data,
> > > > scan, add to watchlist etc )
> > > > - they have one trade that they do over and over (probably
they
> > have
> > > > some spare trades up their sleeve)
> > > > - they have practised their one trade over and over (like a
golf
> > > > swing == 10000 repetitions)
> > > > - they will be biased to simplicity and only add complexity
where
> > > > they are forced to
> > > > - if they have more than one trade they will use it in a
different
> > > > time and place (unless it is part of a portfolio approach)
> > > > - they don't consider their trade perfect i.e. others might
have
> > > > something better but it works for them and they are satisfied
> > with it
> > > > - their trade is very personal (like a favourite son or
daughter)
> > > > - possibly they don't like to talk about trading, even the
> > extroverts
> > > > probably become trading introverts (the trading ego is like an
> > alter
> > > > ego that they put on and take off as they enter and leave the
> > trading
> > > > room)
> > > > - they don't like interruptions while trading
> > > > - trading talk is noise to them
> > > > - they are not as interested in buying things as they used to
be
> > > > except stuff for their trading environment (new computers,
> > software
> > > > etc)
> > > >
> > > > Anybody recognise themselves in there anywhere?
> > > >
> > > > On a slightly different note:
> > > >
> > > > It is rather funny logic that we would think that all of the
> > traders
> > > > who are 'in the zone' are discretionary traders and that all
of
> > the
> > > > other traders don't have the right stuff OR that there is only
> > > > discretionary trading versus mechanical trading.
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, any trader who is consistently successful has the
right
> > > > mindset even if they/we can't define it.
> > > >
> > > > BTW I am not an authority on anything I just aim to share some
> > > > opinions that others may find authoritive if there is any
truth in
> > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > brian_z *:-)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" brian_z111@
wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Jan,
> > > > >
> > > > > 100,000 repetitions indeed!
> > > > >
> > > > > Quite correct.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > However on the subject of 'mindNOT' and Samadhi etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a lot of misconceptions floating around in the
> > > > west/modern
> > > > > culture, on these subjects, because of the mis-
interpretation of
> > > > the
> > > > > spiritual tenents of our BROTHERS OF THE EAST by
unqualified and
> > > > > unauthorised 'teachers'.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a dirth of true spiritual teachers in the West, for
> > > > reasons
> > > > > that I won't go into.
> > > > >
> > > > > You are mixing up two different principles.
> > > > >
> > > > > In symbolic terms:
> > > > >
> > > > > CONSCIOUSNESS wears the CROWN.
> > > > > The objective NOT is the subjective ALL (THE LOGOS).
> > > > >
> > > > > You are confusing the "Son of God" with our "Heavenly
Father"
> > > > >
> > > > > In general Kharma Yoga is the method for the west/modern
> > culture ==
> > > > > the SOUL as an active principle == GOOD WORKS
> > > > >
> > > > > Pragmatically:
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't be concerned about NoMind - it is not for most of us -
a
> > very
> > > > > abstract subject beyond the ken of the majority.
> > > > >
> > > > > NoMind != mindlessness
> > > > >
> > > > > You can't achieve it because it is not there to be achieved
in
> > the
> > > > > way that you are conceiving it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Intuition is what we should be concerned with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Intuition is not mind reading OR an inferior psychic faculty
> > i.e.
> > > > > inferior to the Concete Mind (objective logic).
> > > > > It is not the sixth sense, although we experience it as if
it
> > is.
> > > > > It should be more correctly known as super-rationality.
> > > > > It is our higher mind (also know as the Higher Self, the
> > OverSoul,
> > > > > The Solar Angel, Abstract Mind, Manas).
> > > > > It bridges the gap between Heaven and Earth.
> > > > >
> > > > > In trading it is most appropriately used along the lines
> > > > of 'positive
> > > > > thinking', the 'power of the mind', 'untapped levels of
> > > > > consciousness' etc which is the popular form of it in the
USA
> > where
> > > > > it is a pseudo-religion (the reason for that is that it is
so
> > > > aligned
> > > > > to the methods that are appropriate for the times).
> > > > >
> > > > > These methods are safe to use but it is very unfortunate if
the
> > > > > admonition to do GOOD WORKS doesn't accompany them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > In your case; you and your trading are working well and if
it
> > ain't
> > > > > broke don't fix it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Forget your search for the spiritual Holy Grail of NoMind -
> > that is
> > > > > an impossible dream because it doesn't exist.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't worry about your personal spiritual welfare - you
> > seem
> > > > to
> > > > > be sitting quite pretty.
> > > > >
> > > > > brian_z *:-)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Jan Malmberg" <jan@>
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Well, I had 6 years of martial arts training, where I
> > understood
> > > > > (but
> > > > > > unfortunately not yet attained) the principle of "no-mind"
> > when
> > > > > executing
> > > > > > tasks. I have also had some limited time as a military
> > > > instructor,
> > > > > and it
> > > > > > became obvious that during patrol and combat, when people
> > fire at
> > > > > you
> > > > > > (blanks and smoke grenades, but still), there ones who
make it
> > > > are
> > > > > the ones
> > > > > > who do not take the time to think.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, ones ability to enter this state of mind is
> > dependent on
> > > > > having
> > > > > > enough training so that you subconsciously know that you
> > really
> > > > do
> > > > > not have
> > > > > > to think about how to move and shoot properly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Of the Tekki Shodan pattern, the ancient warriors said
> > something
> > > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > effect of "Most patterns require at least 10 000
executions
> > > > before
> > > > > being
> > > > > > mastered. However, you should not even consider
demonstrating
> > > > Tekki
> > > > > Shodan
> > > > > > to your master before you have had 100 000 repetitions."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It is interesting to note that to reach the original
state of
> > > > mind
> > > > > while
> > > > > > carrying out un-natural activities, you do need lots of
> > training,
> > > > > and that
> > > > > > some things in every field are a lot more difficult than
the
> > > > > average task in
> > > > > > that skill set.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards / JM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _____
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Från: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > För
> > > > > > brian_z111
> > > > > > Skickat: den 1 augusti 2008 05:32
> > > > > > Till: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Ämne: Re: SV: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Semantics plays a part in any discussion, especially when
we
> > are
> > > > > > crossing cultures etc. It plays a greater role
in 'spiritual'
> > > > > > discussion than it does in any other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, first the semantics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We are not limited to the term 'spirituality' as we can
talk
> > > > around
> > > > > > the same area in many different terms (objective
> > mind/subjective
> > > > > > mind, rational/intuitive, super-consciousness, super-
> > rationality
> > > > > the
> > > > > > collective unconscious, God, the Soul, the Divine, the
Supreme
> > > > and
> > > > > > millions more).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For ease of discussion I will stick with 'spirituality'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A few basic points:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - generally the 'spiritual gene' is latent in humanity,
across
> > > > all
> > > > > > cultures
> > > > > > - it is more virile in a small %
> > > > > > - it is particularly latent in the West/modern culture
where
> > we
> > > > > have
> > > > > > turned our back on our spirituality
> > > > > > - I dare say this forum has more than its share of latent
> > > > > > spirituality under the surface
> > > > > > - the psychic opposites are not antagonistic forces e.g.
soul
> > > > > versus
> > > > > > body but rather a complimentary whole so that is not a
matter
> > of
> > > > > > logic/programming trading versus intuitive/discretionary
> > trading.
> > > > > We
> > > > > > are all using both, at different times and places, even
those
> > who
> > > > > > deny it (there is no such thing as a 100%
objective/rational
> > > > > person).
> > > > > > - a healthy psyche has a good balance and flows between
each
> > > > > psychic
> > > > > > pole in its own season.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The main pragmatic points:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - we can't bootstrap our subjective mind so we have to
turn to
> > > > > > mentors for written or oral teaching
> > > > > > - some have more aptitude for it than others
> > > > > > - I was very priviliged to have some experience in these
> > matters
> > > > > long
> > > > > > before I started trading (my subjective
consciousness/soul was
> > > > > > already active and able to express itself in the world)
but it
> > > > > still
> > > > > > took years of pragmatic, practical, objective work
> > to 'program'
> > > > the
> > > > > > trading mind to match i.e. I had to pass a sufficient
number
> > of
> > > > > > exams, in the core units, at the 'University of Trading',
> > before
> > > > I
> > > > > > could 'enter the trading zone'.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In laymans terms, my intuitive mind was functioning but I
> > still
> > > > had
> > > > > > to go out and tediously train my rational/objective mind,
and
> > > > learn
> > > > > > as many of the objective rules of trading as I could,
before
> > the
> > > > > > subjective and the objective minds could synchronize in
the
> > > > trading
> > > > > > room.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Give unto Caeser that which is Caesers AND give homage to
> > your
> > > > > God".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > brian_z
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > ps.com, "Jan
> > > > > > Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I sometimes daytrade using even delayed data for the
charts,
> > > > and
> > > > > a
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > > compiled list stored in my broker's web application. It
> > works
> > > > > > alright. Most
> > > > > > > of the time I do short-to-mid-term swing trading. With
just
> > the
> > > > > 15-
> > > > > > min
> > > > > > > delayed data. Ok, real-time for the indexes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's my opinion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The three components that determine your success are
> > usually:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. Level of analysis. How good you can produce low-risk
> > entries
> > > > > > with a
> > > > > > > probable future outcome, which of course is never
totally
> > > > > possible.
> > > > > > > 2. Level of money management. How much you bet on one
single
> > > > > > trade, how
> > > > > > > well you scale in, scale out, set and stick to stop-
orders,
> > and
> > > > > > more.
> > > > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment. How much you have
> > attained the
> > > > > > > "no-mind" state of the ancient warriors and spiritually
> > > > achieved
> > > > > > people.
> > > > > > > Which means that you fearlessly execute trades while
> > > > maintaining a
> > > > > > > risk-appropriate behavior. Only really possible when
you no
> > > > > longer
> > > > > > fear the
> > > > > > > horrible market and what it might do to you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Which one is most important? The one you lack the most
at
> > the
> > > > > > moment. I was
> > > > > > > fortunate to start out with fairly solid money
management
> > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > start.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Best regards / JM
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _____
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > ps.com
> > > > > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > ps.com]
> > > > > > On Behalf
> > > > > > > Of Louis P.
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 July 2008 2:15 PM
> > > > > > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > ps.com
> > > > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I was only wondering... Anyone actually making money or
> > making
> > > > a
> > > > > > living
> > > > > > > with AB and trading?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've been working on ideas and plans for over 7 months
now
> > and
> > > > > > didn't find
> > > > > > > anything convincing yet. I've been searching daily data,
> > then
> > > > > > hourly,
> > > > > > > 15-minute and now I am into 1-minute data and nothing
seems
> > > > > > satisfying.
> > > > > > > Been searching RSI, MFI, ADX, MA, HHV, LLV... nothing
seems
> > to
> > > > > work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So... Anyone is making consistent money with this, and
if
> > so,
> > > > at
> > > > > > which
> > > > > > > timeframe and how do you do it?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm beginning to think about switching to tick
database; it
> > > > seems
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > 1-minute is too slow for intraday trading. Anyone making
> > money
> > > > > with
> > > > > > > 1-minute?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Louis
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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