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Howard is on the record as saying something to the effect
that "designing our own systems, using an objective function, takes
care of the psychological aspects of trading (eliminates them?)".
Barry has recently said the same thing about AT, in this forum, as
does Herman today.
A lot of people would agree with that.
It is a positive belief, and simplicity personified so it meets my
personal criteria on those two counts.
I dare say it is an argument that may well win the day.
Personally I have an open mind on the subject.
I wonder, however, if 'we' are free from psychological factors when
we make our decision to AT in the first place OR when we are
comfortably sleeping while our computer trades our account for us OR
when we categorise people who don't autotrade as "living in the last
millenium"?
> Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that stuff
> I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade.
I didn't advocate it as a pre-requisite.
I am not aware of anyone who has, although I think there are a few
out there who do (I seem to recall that some of the fathers
of 'Positive Thinking' were devout Christians though).
To focus the discussion a little more ....
Mark Douglas "Trading In The Zone" is a well read book (?) and
probably the source of the term "in the zone" that seems to have
found its way into the traders lexicon.
To quote:
"The essence of what it means to be in "the zone" is that your
mind and the market are in sync. As a result, you sense what the
market
is about to do as if there is no separation between yourself and the
collective consciousness of everyone else participating in the market.
The zone is a mental space where you are doing more than just reading
the collective mind, you are also in complete harmony with it."
This is the point we are debating isn't it?
I am still thinking about that one but to set the record straight (to
help the traders who are interested in this viewpoint).
I said that this is very similar to intuition (refer to your Webster
dictionary and you will see what I mean).
I have some personal experience with intuition so I feel qualified to
comment.
It is a normal psychological function, that a significant percentage
of the population have, but it is often not that well used or
understood by them because it is kept suppressed in our culture.
Since inituiton is in fact the 4th, out of 7 levels of consciousness
that we are capable of experiencing (levels that in the past have
only been experienced temporarily or by accident, drugs or spiritual
practices) I went on to fill in some contextual information about it.
Definitely the intuitive faculties can be enhanced - the fact of
being aware of them and using them will strengthen them just like
excersing with an atrophied muscle.
I am not that certain about its applicability to trading.
There are no scientific studies, on the subject, that I am aware of
and IMO it is a subjective judgement that the proponents of this
style are making.
Jan disgreed with me, that intuition was the faculty that some
traders claim they use, so I went on to point out that it would be
much more common, and easy, for succesful traders to program their
subconscious mind by focus (removing trading distractions, keeping it
simple), isolating the key skills and practising them repetitively
(pracise makes perfect).
IMO that is what a lot of traders do, whether they know it or not.
I then pointed out that this was not using the intuition, or any
special state of consciousness above and beyond the lower three
(mind, emotion, body).
The reason I did that is because if people are going to 'use' these
advanced psychological techniques they should learn something about
what they are doing and not get them mixed up or use a technique that
isn't applicable for that level of the psyche.
So, to be clear about it:
I am advocating positively programming the trading alter ego since it
is safe, effective and achieveable by all (it doesn't rely on
the 'doubtful' intuition or require any hard to acquire knowledge or
particularly difficult practices).
I don't know how this applies to people who move to AT.
It definitely isn't as relevant.
Perhaps they feel their computer is the 'postively programmed trading
alter ego' and that it can do a better job of it than they can do
themselves.
You will have to ask them about the psychology of AT trading but as I
said already they will probably say there is no such thing.
brian_z
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "dave_88_1961" <dave_88_1961@xxx>
wrote:
>
>
> Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that spirituality,
psychology,
> philosophy, Indian spiritual philosophy,
>
> God, yoga, meditation, prayer, singing/chanting, dancing, spiritual
> practices,
>
> temporary intimacy with the Gods, psyhic powers, Western
spirituality,
> and spiritual teachings,
>
> I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade. Am I alone on
this
> or is this the way everybody trades in the new millennium ?
>
> Dave
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@> wrote:
>
> > FTR
> > I don't know how people can tranlate this into applied Trading
> > Psychology but to set the record straight.
> >
> > Re the relevance of spirituality/personal development to trading:
> >
> > Using Indian spiritual philosophy as the example.
> >
> > There is no single philosophy but rather a myriad of inter-related
> > and sometimes conflicting ones.
> > However, as a generalisation, the ideals of Indian spirituality
are
> > passive (to a Westerner) and can be summarised as:
> >
> > - Man is a small replica of God (potentially)
> > - the goal is to sublimate the mind of Man to the mind of God
(Yoga
> > is the union of Man-God)
> > - various practices are used to faclitate this (meditation,
prayer,
> > singing/chanting, dancing etc)
> > - permanancy of the union is a long and difficult goal, seldom
> > achieved
> > - temporary intimacy with the Gods, achieved via spiritual
practices,
> > TRANSFORMS the practitioner and hence their culture
> > - psyhic powers (Siddhi) are a byproduct and considered a
distraction
> > and/or dangerous
> > - worldly success is considered somewhat of lesser value than
> > spiritual success
> >
> > "From the Unreal lead me to the Real".
> >
> > Once again these are gross simplifications which have been
vigorously
> > debated for thousands of years.
> >
> > Western spirituality is active.
> > We seek to "petition the Lord" to intervene in our lifes/culture
and
> > to give us the Power(s), ostensibly to do his work.
> >
> > In both cases the spiritual path is the same, except that the
> > emphasis is different, however all variations on the theme are
> > operative in both cultures, via their sub-cultures.
> >
> >
> > Applying this to trading:
> >
> > Will adopting spiritual practices, say meditation, or prayer,
make me
> > a better trader?
> >
> > Is there any correspondence between the transcendental
consciousness
> > of meditation/prayer and the mindset that successful traders have
> > (assuming there is such a thing as a common identifiable traders
> > mindset)?
> >
> > Possibly.
> >
> > In my own experience, if I had any advantages in this area when I
> > started out trading i.e. I did "know myself" before I started
> > trading, I still had to get to know the markets, TA, my broker,
data
> > provider and software etc as well.
> >
> >
> > Re 'Positive Thinking' and 'The Power of The Mind'
> >
> > This has been borrowed from spiritual teachings (power of Prayer
etc).
> >
> > This is an application of a limited part of spirituality, and
without
> > the attendant ethics etc it can bring about Worldly Success but
that
> > doesn't neccessarily equate to Life Success i.e. it is a partial
> > spiritual practice without the full experience or spiritual
knowledge.
> >
> >
> > Is there a mindset that successful traders have (as claimed by
Mark
> > Douglas "In The Trading Zone")?
> >
> > Possibly, or Mark could have just found a good way to make some
money
> > OR be projecting his personal needs/worldview onto the trading
world.
> >
> > As a hypothesis (a lot of traders say that trading changed the way
> > they think i.e trading changed THEM).
> >
> > In my experience we tend to:
> >
> > - spend more and more time alone in the trading room
> > - spend less and less time 'socialising'
> > - spend long hours focused on single issues
> > - our trading rooms are sensory deprived environments
> > - undertake intensive problem solving/creative tasks
> > - are confronted by our extreme emotional states etc
> >
> > It is possible that intense traders could eperience trading as
> > personally transformative under those conditions and that they do
> > experience, or even cultivate, altered consciousness (to some
extent)
> > while actively engaged in trading.
> >
> > Based on the above is there anything we can do to facilitate
trading
> > success?
> >
> > Sticking my neck out I predict super succesful traders would have
> > some of the following habits/qualities:
> >
> > - they use positive thinking, either consciously or otherwise
(they
> > almost certainly set goals)
> > - they have self-confidence or self-esteem (if they don't have it
> > when they start out they acquire it)
> > - they are psychologically mature & comfortable in their skins
> > (through other life experiences - not necessarily only acquired
> > through academic success)
> > - at some time in their life they have read or thought about the
> > psychology of life/trading but it is not really a prominent part
of
> > their daily thinking (they tend to do it rather than think about
it)
> > - they are not very concerned with defining their style or over
> > defining their trading
> > - they have rituals (the way the office is setup, the time of the
day
> > they do certain things) and they do things in order (download
data,
> > scan, add to watchlist etc )
> > - they have one trade that they do over and over (probably they
have
> > some spare trades up their sleeve)
> > - they have practised their one trade over and over (like a golf
> > swing == 10000 repetitions)
> > - they will be biased to simplicity and only add complexity where
> > they are forced to
> > - if they have more than one trade they will use it in a different
> > time and place (unless it is part of a portfolio approach)
> > - they don't consider their trade perfect i.e. others might have
> > something better but it works for them and they are satisfied
with it
> > - their trade is very personal (like a favourite son or daughter)
> > - possibly they don't like to talk about trading, even the
extroverts
> > probably become trading introverts (the trading ego is like an
alter
> > ego that they put on and take off as they enter and leave the
trading
> > room)
> > - they don't like interruptions while trading
> > - trading talk is noise to them
> > - they are not as interested in buying things as they used to be
> > except stuff for their trading environment (new computers,
software
> > etc)
> >
> > Anybody recognise themselves in there anywhere?
> >
> > On a slightly different note:
> >
> > It is rather funny logic that we would think that all of the
traders
> > who are 'in the zone' are discretionary traders and that all of
the
> > other traders don't have the right stuff OR that there is only
> > discretionary trading versus mechanical trading.
> >
> > Anyway, any trader who is consistently successful has the right
> > mindset even if they/we can't define it.
> >
> > BTW I am not an authority on anything I just aim to share some
> > opinions that others may find authoritive if there is any truth in
> > them.
> >
> > brian_z *:-)
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" brian_z111@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Jan,
> > >
> > > 100,000 repetitions indeed!
> > >
> > > Quite correct.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > However on the subject of 'mindNOT' and Samadhi etc.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of misconceptions floating around in the
> > west/modern
> > > culture, on these subjects, because of the mis-interpretation of
> > the
> > > spiritual tenents of our BROTHERS OF THE EAST by unqualified and
> > > unauthorised 'teachers'.
> > >
> > > There is a dirth of true spiritual teachers in the West, for
> > reasons
> > > that I won't go into.
> > >
> > > You are mixing up two different principles.
> > >
> > > In symbolic terms:
> > >
> > > CONSCIOUSNESS wears the CROWN.
> > > The objective NOT is the subjective ALL (THE LOGOS).
> > >
> > > You are confusing the "Son of God" with our "Heavenly Father"
> > >
> > > In general Kharma Yoga is the method for the west/modern
culture ==
> > > the SOUL as an active principle == GOOD WORKS
> > >
> > > Pragmatically:
> > >
> > > Don't be concerned about NoMind - it is not for most of us - a
very
> > > abstract subject beyond the ken of the majority.
> > >
> > > NoMind != mindlessness
> > >
> > > You can't achieve it because it is not there to be achieved in
the
> > > way that you are conceiving it.
> > >
> > > Intuition is what we should be concerned with.
> > >
> > > Intuition is not mind reading OR an inferior psychic faculty
i.e.
> > > inferior to the Concete Mind (objective logic).
> > > It is not the sixth sense, although we experience it as if it
is.
> > > It should be more correctly known as super-rationality.
> > > It is our higher mind (also know as the Higher Self, the
OverSoul,
> > > The Solar Angel, Abstract Mind, Manas).
> > > It bridges the gap between Heaven and Earth.
> > >
> > > In trading it is most appropriately used along the lines
> > of 'positive
> > > thinking', the 'power of the mind', 'untapped levels of
> > > consciousness' etc which is the popular form of it in the USA
where
> > > it is a pseudo-religion (the reason for that is that it is so
> > aligned
> > > to the methods that are appropriate for the times).
> > >
> > > These methods are safe to use but it is very unfortunate if the
> > > admonition to do GOOD WORKS doesn't accompany them.
> > >
> > >
> > > In your case; you and your trading are working well and if it
ain't
> > > broke don't fix it.
> > >
> > > Forget your search for the spiritual Holy Grail of NoMind -
that is
> > > an impossible dream because it doesn't exist.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't worry about your personal spiritual welfare - you
seem
> > to
> > > be sitting quite pretty.
> > >
> > > brian_z *:-)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Jan Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > Well, I had 6 years of martial arts training, where I
understood
> > > (but
> > > > unfortunately not yet attained) the principle of "no-mind"
when
> > > executing
> > > > tasks. I have also had some limited time as a military
> > instructor,
> > > and it
> > > > became obvious that during patrol and combat, when people
fire at
> > > you
> > > > (blanks and smoke grenades, but still), there ones who make it
> > are
> > > the ones
> > > > who do not take the time to think.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > However, ones ability to enter this state of mind is
dependent on
> > > having
> > > > enough training so that you subconsciously know that you
really
> > do
> > > not have
> > > > to think about how to move and shoot properly.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Of the Tekki Shodan pattern, the ancient warriors said
something
> > to
> > > the
> > > > effect of "Most patterns require at least 10 000 executions
> > before
> > > being
> > > > mastered. However, you should not even consider demonstrating
> > Tekki
> > > Shodan
> > > > to your master before you have had 100 000 repetitions."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It is interesting to note that to reach the original state of
> > mind
> > > while
> > > > carrying out un-natural activities, you do need lots of
training,
> > > and that
> > > > some things in every field are a lot more difficult than the
> > > average task in
> > > > that skill set.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards / JM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _____
> > > >
> > > > Från: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > För
> > > > brian_z111
> > > > Skickat: den 1 augusti 2008 05:32
> > > > Till: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Ämne: Re: SV: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment.
> > > >
> > > > Semantics plays a part in any discussion, especially when we
are
> > > > crossing cultures etc. It plays a greater role in 'spiritual'
> > > > discussion than it does in any other.
> > > >
> > > > So, first the semantics.
> > > >
> > > > We are not limited to the term 'spirituality' as we can talk
> > around
> > > > the same area in many different terms (objective
mind/subjective
> > > > mind, rational/intuitive, super-consciousness, super-
rationality
> > > the
> > > > collective unconscious, God, the Soul, the Divine, the Supreme
> > and
> > > > millions more).
> > > >
> > > > For ease of discussion I will stick with 'spirituality'.
> > > >
> > > > A few basic points:
> > > >
> > > > - generally the 'spiritual gene' is latent in humanity, across
> > all
> > > > cultures
> > > > - it is more virile in a small %
> > > > - it is particularly latent in the West/modern culture where
we
> > > have
> > > > turned our back on our spirituality
> > > > - I dare say this forum has more than its share of latent
> > > > spirituality under the surface
> > > > - the psychic opposites are not antagonistic forces e.g. soul
> > > versus
> > > > body but rather a complimentary whole so that is not a matter
of
> > > > logic/programming trading versus intuitive/discretionary
trading.
> > > We
> > > > are all using both, at different times and places, even those
who
> > > > deny it (there is no such thing as a 100% objective/rational
> > > person).
> > > > - a healthy psyche has a good balance and flows between each
> > > psychic
> > > > pole in its own season.
> > > >
> > > > The main pragmatic points:
> > > >
> > > > - we can't bootstrap our subjective mind so we have to turn to
> > > > mentors for written or oral teaching
> > > > - some have more aptitude for it than others
> > > > - I was very priviliged to have some experience in these
matters
> > > long
> > > > before I started trading (my subjective consciousness/soul was
> > > > already active and able to express itself in the world) but it
> > > still
> > > > took years of pragmatic, practical, objective work
to 'program'
> > the
> > > > trading mind to match i.e. I had to pass a sufficient number
of
> > > > exams, in the core units, at the 'University of Trading',
before
> > I
> > > > could 'enter the trading zone'.
> > > >
> > > > In laymans terms, my intuitive mind was functioning but I
still
> > had
> > > > to go out and tediously train my rational/objective mind, and
> > learn
> > > > as many of the objective rules of trading as I could, before
the
> > > > subjective and the objective minds could synchronize in the
> > trading
> > > > room.
> > > >
> > > > "Give unto Caeser that which is Caesers AND give homage to
your
> > > God".
> > > >
> > > > brian_z
> > > >
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ps.com, "Jan
> > > > Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I sometimes daytrade using even delayed data for the charts,
> > and
> > > a
> > > > list
> > > > > compiled list stored in my broker's web application. It
works
> > > > alright. Most
> > > > > of the time I do short-to-mid-term swing trading. With just
the
> > > 15-
> > > > min
> > > > > delayed data. Ok, real-time for the indexes.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's my opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The three components that determine your success are
usually:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1. Level of analysis. How good you can produce low-risk
entries
> > > > with a
> > > > > probable future outcome, which of course is never totally
> > > possible.
> > > > > 2. Level of money management. How much you bet on one single
> > > > trade, how
> > > > > well you scale in, scale out, set and stick to stop-orders,
and
> > > > more.
> > > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment. How much you have
attained the
> > > > > "no-mind" state of the ancient warriors and spiritually
> > achieved
> > > > people.
> > > > > Which means that you fearlessly execute trades while
> > maintaining a
> > > > > risk-appropriate behavior. Only really possible when you no
> > > longer
> > > > fear the
> > > > > horrible market and what it might do to you.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Which one is most important? The one you lack the most at
the
> > > > moment. I was
> > > > > fortunate to start out with fairly solid money management
from
> > > the
> > > > start.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards / JM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _____
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ps.com
> > > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%
40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ps.com]
> > > > On Behalf
> > > > > Of Louis P.
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 July 2008 2:15 PM
> > > > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > ps.com
> > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I was only wondering... Anyone actually making money or
making
> > a
> > > > living
> > > > > with AB and trading?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've been working on ideas and plans for over 7 months now
and
> > > > didn't find
> > > > > anything convincing yet. I've been searching daily data,
then
> > > > hourly,
> > > > > 15-minute and now I am into 1-minute data and nothing seems
> > > > satisfying.
> > > > > Been searching RSI, MFI, ADX, MA, HHV, LLV... nothing seems
to
> > > work.
> > > > >
> > > > > So... Anyone is making consistent money with this, and if
so,
> > at
> > > > which
> > > > > timeframe and how do you do it?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm beginning to think about switching to tick database; it
> > seems
> > > > even
> > > > > 1-minute is too slow for intraday trading. Anyone making
money
> > > with
> > > > > 1-minute?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > >
> > > > > Louis
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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