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Dissent in a free society is a good thing. Keeps those of us
who are in the right on our toes.
:-)
-- John
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wong [mailto:whs@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 2:30 PM
> To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [RT] [Fwd: article]
>
>
> Didn't the Hitler appeasers say more or less the same thing?
>
> Wong
> ============
> At 08:24 PM 9/22/01 -0000, JW wrote:
> >But Saddam is still in power, still idolized by many in the Middle
> >East, still supporting terrorism, still making money on oil, still
> >maintaining an army, still taunting us. No, we won a battle but lost
> >the war. And now, seemingly unable to learn from our own or others
> >history, we are on the eve of a potential war that will result in
> >further death. Masked and promoted as a patriotic war on terrorism,
> >this war is really just an excuse for more blood and revenge by the
> >hawkish Christen right. Our God will beat your God, sigh...
> >
> >CNN is running a piece showing that the beginnings of a strong peace
> >movement is forming at a number of the nations university's. I
> >watched and listened to voices of reason from students who are young
> >but able to think clearly, students saying that they didn't want to
> >go to war, that waging a military war was not the path to a
> >solution. Dissent is increasing in the USA and the "Bush without
> >thinking" coalition is already beginning to fracture. Of 8 related
> >letters to the editor in the SF Chronicle today, 5 are against
> >present US actions, while 3 ask for support of Bush's initiives at
> >all costs.
> >
> >Parents of Flight 93 victim call for peace
> >They fear U.S. will retaliate in kind
> >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
> >file=/chronicle/archive/2001/09/22/MN123903.DTL
> >
> >---
> >JW
> >
> >--- In realtraders@xxxx, "Norman Winski" <nwinski@xxxx> wrote:
> >> RS,
> >>
> >> The historical facts on the Gulf War are that we kicked Saddam's
> >butt via we lost about 50 people and he lost 100,000. Bush Sr., due
> >to the alliance (read European state craft advice) and to maintain
> >some ba;amce of power in the region, made the flawed decision not to
> >behead the Iraqi menace. Those are the facts. Ok, now you can go
> >back to watching, what was it? KCN? Kabul Cable News?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Norman
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Rakesh Sahgal
> >> To: realtraders@xxxx
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:16 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [RT] [Fwd: article]
> >>
> >>
> >> Try watching the BBC. They have been presenting a much more
> >objective assessment of U.S. capabilities. That should be sobering
> >for all those gung ho cowboys on CNN who think it is going to be a
> >cake walk.
> >>
> >> Once this issue snowballs into a Christianity vs Muslim thing,
> >which it surely will given the irresponsible nonsense being bandied
> >about, not only in the U.S.( by all and sundry excepting the senior
> >levels of the U.S. administration) but in the muslim world as well,
> >then the disruptions in the global energy supplies and the
> >consequences are going to be unimaginable. The only saving grace here
> >is the presence of the Euorpeans who have more experience in
> >statecraft and have been much more restrained in their utterances and
> >reactions.
> >>
> >> Already Pakistan is witnessing riots on the issue of support to
> >the U.S. . While it is the fringe element that is creating problems
> >right now, the refusal of the West to provide conclusive evidence is
> >only making a hero of bin laden and making the vast majority wonder
> >what do the western nations want to hide. The efforts to impose the
> >puppet king Zahir Shah (deposed in a popular uprising decades ago) on
> >Afghanistan by the U.S., racist attacks on South Asians and Arabs in
> >North America and U.K. , offloading South Asian passengers from
> >flights in the U.S. , insulting South Asian women , albeit by a few
> >extreme right wing imbeciles, prohibiting mercantile vessels from
> >most muslim origin ports entering the U.S. ports, are all playing
> >into the hands of the people who orchestrated this damn nonsense.
> >>
> >> This response of "we are going to change the way they live" is
> >nonsense. If the energy supplies dry up due to popular disaffection
> >in the middle east, what will the west do, recolonize the gulf?
> >>
> >> All those in the United States who think they are going to do a
> >Grenada here(the only notable victory the U.S has had in an
> >engagement on the ground after world War 2 or maybe Panama - please
> >do correct me if I am wrong ) are going to get a rude jolt. The only
> >problem is it might be too bloody late for the rest of us that live
> >in the region.
> >>
> >>
> >> Rakesh
> >>
> >>
> >> At 08:11 AM 9/22/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >> Sending this to the list as it is certainly worth reading.
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >> realtraders-unsubscribe@xxxx
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >>
> >> Return-Path: <royfeld3@xxxx>
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> >> id <20010922032221.XPAV23831.almond@xxxx>
> >> for <ariel@xxxx>; Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:22:21 -0400
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> >> Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:22:21 -0700
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> >HTTP;
> >> Sat, 22 Sep 2001 03:22:20 GMT
> >> X-Originating-IP: [63.28.34.73]
> >> From: "Roy Feld" <royfeld3@xxxx>
> >> To: ariel@xxxx
> >> Subject: article
> >> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 23:22:20 -0400
> >> Mime-Version: 1.0
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
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> >[CA509F20:01C14315]
> >> X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
> >>
> >>
> >> Truth or Consequences
> >> By William Saletan
> >>
> >> Wednesday, Sept. 19, 2001, at 4:00 p.m. PT
> >>
> >> Why do they hate us?
> >>
> >> That's the question many people are asking about the
> >terrorists who struck
> >> the Pentagon and the World Trade Center last week. At first,
> >the question
> >> was raised simply to make sense of the tragedy. Then it was
> >posed for
> >> investigative reasons, to understand who was involved in the
> >crime and what
> >> they might do next. Now the purpose of the question is
> >changing again.
> >> Commentators are wondering how we made the terrorists angry
> >enough to hurt
> >> us and how we might change our behavior to avoid further
> >attacks.
> >>
> >> These writers don't exactly fault the United States. They
> >simply argue that
> >> the attacks were a consequence of American behavior. "The
> >suicide attacks in
> >> Israel-and now in the United States-are reactions to specific
> >actions and
> >> policies," writes The Nation's David Corn. In The New Yorker,
> >Susan Sontag
> >> says the terrorist strikes were "undertaken as a consequence
> >of specific
> >> American alliances and actions." Salon Executive Editor Gary
> >Kamiya
> >> concludes that "our only real defense will be winning the
> >hearts and minds
> >> of those who hate us. . We must pressure Israel to take the
> >concrete steps
> >> necessary to provide justice for the Palestinian people."
> >>
> >> The practical point made by these consequentialists is that
> >we can't stop
> >> terrorism without addressing its causes. A diagnostic
> >approach, they argue,
> >> is wiser than simply lashing out in anger. They're right
> >about that. But
> >> their wisdom falls short of the next insight:
> >Consequentialism is a two-way
> >> street. It's true that terrorists can impose consequences on
> >us. But it's
> >> just as true that we can impose consequences on terrorists.
> >>
> >> Superficially, it's empowering to analyze every situation in
> >terms of the
> >> consequences of our own acts. Understanding how we can change
> >the enemy's
> >> behavior by changing our own appears to put control in our
> >hands. It also
> >> gratifies our egos by preserving our sense of free will while
> >interpreting
> >> the enemy's conduct as causally determined. We're the
> >subjects; they're the
> >> objects. But the empowerment and the ego gratification are
> >illusory. By
> >> accepting as a mechanical fact the enemy's aggressive
> >response to our
> >> offending behavior, we surrender control of the most
> >important part of the
> >> sequence.
> >>
> >> Imagine yourself as a rat in a behavioral experiment. You're
> >put in a cage
> >> with three levers. When you press the first lever, you get
> >food. When you
> >> press the second, you get water. When you press the third,
> >you get an
> >> electric shock. You quickly learn to press the first two
> >levers and not the
> >> third. You think you're in control because you're choosing
> >the levers that
> >> get you what you want. But the real power belongs to the
> >scientists who
> >> built the cage and run the experiment, because they determine
> >which acts
> >> produce which consequences.
> >>
> >> Now imagine yourself as a battered wife. Every so often, your
> >husband gets
> >> angry and hits you. Why? You struggle to understand the
> >connection between
> >> your behavior and his response. What are you doing that
> >causes him to react
> >> this way? You hope that by identifying and avoiding the
> >offending behavior,
> >> you can regain domestic peace and a sense of control. You're
> >deluding
> >> yourself. As long as your husband decides which of your acts
> >will earn you a
> >> beating, he's the master, and you're the slave.
> >>
> >> This is the problem with the consequentialist argument for
> >revising U.S.
> >> policy in the Middle East. Maybe it's true, for other
> >reasons, that we
> >> should rethink our position in the Israeli-Palestinian
> >conflict, withdraw
> >> our troops from Saudi Arabia, or ease sanctions on Iraq. But
> >if we do these
> >> things to avoid further attacks on our cities, we're granting
> >terrorists the
> >> power to dictate our acts by dictating the consequences.
> >>
> >> The consequentialists present themselves as humanitarians and
> >idealists.
> >> They purport to speak up for the plights, principles, and
> >aspirations of
> >> people who are driven to commit acts of terror. But their
> >mechanistic
> >> analysis dehumanizes these people. Terrorists aren't animals.
> >No law of
> >> nature compels them to blow up buildings when they're angry.
> >We don't have
> >> to accept their violent reactions to our policies. We can
> >break that causal
> >> chain.
> >>
> >> How? By turning consequentialism on its head. We can dictate
> >what happens to
> >> people who attack us. Suicidal terrorists may be impervious
> >to this logic,
> >> but their commanders and sponsors aren't. Launder money for a
> >man who
> >> destroys the World Trade Center, and your assets will be
> >confiscated.
> >> Shelter an organization that crashes a plane into the
> >Pentagon, and your
> >> government buildings will be leveled. Expel terrorists from
> >your country,
> >> freeze their bank accounts, and you'll be liberated from
> >sanctions and debt.
> >>
> >> Will this approach succeed? We don't know how each would-be
> >terrorist or
> >> sponsor will respond. It's an open question. But that's the
> >point. As long
> >> as we view it the other way around-ourselves as the actors,
> >and our enemies
> >> as the imposers of consequences-the question is closed. Our
> >enemies'
> >> reactions, and therefore our options, are rigidly defined. We
> >can have
> >> troops in Saudi Arabia, or we can have peace at home, but we
> >can't have
> >> both.
> >>
> >> Challenging the false objectivity of these dilemmas doesn't
> >require us to
> >> ignore the potential consequences of our acts. Some of our
> >Middle East
> >> policies do anger many Arabs or Muslims. We ought to worry
> >when others don't
> >> like our behavior. But just as surely, they ought to worry
> >when we don't
> >> like theirs.
> >>
> >> Two years ago, when President Clinton waged war against
> >ethnic cleansing in
> >> Kosovo, consequentialists on the American right blamed him
> >for the
> >> bloodshed. His aggression, they argued, had provoked the
> >Serbs to violence.
> >> Now that President Bush is girding for war, consequentialism
> >has broken out
> >> on the left. To his credit, Bush is defying it with equal
> >vigor. The
> >> terrorists who struck the Pentagon and the World Trade
> >Center "are clearly
> >> determined to try to force the United States of America and
> >our values to
> >> withdraw from the world," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
> >observed
> >> yesterday. "We have a choice: either to change the way we
> >live, which is
> >> unacceptable; or to change the way that they live. And we
> >chose the latter."
> >> Amen.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Rakesh Sahgal
> >> Online Status:
> >>
> >>
> >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> >>
> >> Start here...
> >>
> >> Height:
> >> 345678 ft 01234567891011in
> >>
> >> Weight:
> >> lbs. kg.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >> realtraders-unsubscribe@xxxx
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >realtraders-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
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> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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