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--- In realtraders@xxxx, Ralph Volpe <rjv@xxxx> wrote:
> Me: you're a lengthy writer but you make no sense. Let me critique
most of
> your points.
>
> As for you voting for whomever you think will be the best person
for the
> office at the time, why don't you concede that you'll vote for
whomever the
> media brainwashes you to vote for, which is usually a Democrat. You
also
> criticized Bush's speech when nearly everyone praised both the
substance and
> its careful delivery, but I guess YOU know better.
>
==> Rah-rah, rah-rah, rah. I gave my opinion. I realized that
although we live in a free country I fully expected to be attacked by
the right-wing radical, so-called patriots. Such is life. My
opinion of the positive spin on Bush's speech is that that the
expectations for his performance in both the job and speaking have
gotten so low that everyone was just happy he didn't flub any words.
Does the ability to read and not making mistakes make a good speech?
And yes, I would have liked to have voted for a Democrat. Now had
the Democratic party not fielded that fool Gore...
>
> As for use of "I" and "we," the President was careful and smart
enough to say
> "I" when he was doing something; such as constructing a new cabinet
position;
> and "we" when all American were involved in getting a job done. The
use of
> "I" is not to brag but to assume responsibility. As for "we," some
American
> will be called on to go to Afghan to clean house and those of us
who stay
> behind will have to do whatever we do best to ensure the strength
of our
> economy.
==> I stick with my previous Tonto joke comment. "What you mean we,
Lone Ranger?" Just as with out experiences in the Vietnam war, if
the body bags start coming home, watch how the meaning of "we"
changes. Why can't we learn from our past experiences or even the
experiences of others like the British and Russians? They got into a
ground war with the Afghans and not only lost their wars, they lost a
lot of good people. It won't be any different this time if we commit
the same mistake.
> One major confusion you're also having is local terrorism vs. global
> terrorism. What's going on in Israel and Ireland is local
terrorism. What we
> and the Europeans are experiencing is global terrorism. When the
new Bush
> administration attempted to put the lid on Israel, the hope was to
contain
> this barbarism and give the new administration time to develop
workable
> solutions. As we have seen, it is now too late for that -- the pit
bull is no
> longer fenced in. Terrorism has successfully gone global and now
threatens
> all freedom loving people.
==> Local vs. global terrorism? Pul-leeze. What Bush said was that
we we're going to fight "global terrorism" He did not make any
distinction between global and local. Was it just local when the IRA
went over to Britain and detonated bombs, maiming and killing what,
20,000 people over time? Is it local when Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian
based/supported terrorists come to Israel and blow up people there?
Is it local when terrorists blow up the Israel embassy in Argentina,
etc., etc. etc.... No, all you are saying is that little of this
"global" terrorism mattered to the average American until it happened
here. Try taking off your blinders. You might see something.
> Let me also educate you on some history. Reagan did fight terrorism
even
> thought the gang of Dems in Congress did everything they could to
stop him.
> Don't you remember the Cuban zealots who were setting up terrorist
cells all
> over South America? Don't you remember the Sandinista guerrillas?
Reagan kept
> South American free and should largely get credit for the collapse
of the
> USSR. As for Bush senior, he was only in for four years, but don't
you
> remember the Iraq war? My, what a short memory you have? That was
a major
> intervention to curtail an overt terrorist nation. Do you remember
how the
> Dems in Congress first fought Bush senior and refused to vote in
support of
> intervention? Do you remember how he had to get world opinion to
twist the
> Dems arms in Congress to finally get approval to do what was
needed? I'm
> sorry to say, you don't have your facts straight on these issues.
==> Thanks for the education <bg>. This isn't the place and I don't
have the time to rationally address all your statements. Of course I
remember the Gulf war. And? Hussein is still in power, still raping
the country, still rattling his saber, still has his army, is still a
threat. Yes, Kuwait is free and safe but we did half a job because
Bush's dad wouldn't release the military to do what had to be done,
which was to take over the country and find Hussein. He knew if did
so and dead bodies started returning to America that the coalition
would fall apart and his chances for reelection would be nil. But
not only did GHB screw up the Gulf war, he took the economy down
also. And you can't even blame the Democrats in that one because
remember, there was a Republican in office before him.
> As for taking action now in light of the WTC destruction, it has
nothing to
> do with patriotism, as you have said. To the point, it has
everything to do
> with protecting freedom, free trade, and to secure our safety.
These are all
> essential factors to improve the plight of people worldwide, which
is not
> what these fanatics have in mind. As for invading Afghan and
bombing it to
> hell -- I don't think so. Have you seen the videos of the Afghan
people? They
> are really primitive and destitute. Let me provide an analogy of
our action,
> as I see it. If there's a criminal in the ghetto, do we bomb the
hell out of a
> ghetto to get him? No! We just go in with some force and take him
out! That's
> all!
==> Oh yes, it has everything to with rah-rah patriotism. I'm as
patriotic as anyone but I don't want to see this country return to
the diverseness of the Vietnam war. I have a real problem with the
recent rash of unthinking, blinded by the light of the moment, fair
weather patriots. Although terrorism has been running rampant
throughout the world for so long, the USA is suddenly going to protect
"freedom, free trade and secure our safety"? Umm, why weren't we
doing that before the tragedy last week? Why weren't our airports
made safe before the event? Why were so few concerned enough with
terrorism occurring in the rest of the world to adequately protect
our own shores? Why did we have to suffer more than 12,000 dead and
injured before we took this threat seriously? Because we didn't have
and didn't want to spend the money that's why.
As I said, every thinking person supports the end of terrorism, but
eliminating critical thought and speech while having everyone march
in lockstep will not be the path to success.
> On a final note, it isn't Bush's plan to go after every terrorist.
You didn't
> listen to his wording. He said he would go after those terrorists
with global
> ambitions. If they can be taken out, then the local thugs my
atrophy without
> international support -- as we can all hope.
>
> Ralph
>
==> We really don't have the money to support this war. With our
economy already in tatters, unable to raise taxes in a poor economy,
our only choice to fund this war, bailouts and loan guarantees will
be to dig into the Social Security fund. So much for that lockbox,
huh? Say good-bye to retirement. We should acknowledge that this
mission is merely a thirst for revenge and has little chance of real
success. We don't have "God On Our Side" (see below) and we are not
going to succeed in knocking out worldwide terrorism. Even if we
(hopefully) have some short-term successes, terrorism will only
spring up somewhere else. We are going to face the same reality, the
same waste of money that we have with our supposed war on drugs.
I submit that beefing up our own security would be a better way to
spend a portion of the massive dollars we are committing to this war
while fielding select assignation squads to track down the worst of
the terrorists?
Finally, I suggest the following references.
http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2001/June/Afghan/index.html
With God On Our Side by Bob Dylan (1963)
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/withgod.html
Oh my name it is nothin'
My age it means less
The country I come from
Is called the Midwest
I's taught and brought up there
The laws to abide
And that land that I live in
Has God on its side.
Oh the history books tell it
They tell it so well
The cavalries charged
The Indians fell
The cavalries charged
The Indians died
Oh the country was young
With God on its side.
Oh the Spanish-American
War had its day
And the Civil War too
Was soon laid away
And the names of the heroes
I's made to memorize
With guns in their hands
And God on their side.
Oh the First World War, boys
It closed out its fate
The reason for fighting
I never got straight
But I learned to accept it
Accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side.
When the Second World War
Came to an end
We forgave the Germans
And we were friends
Though they murdered six million
In the ovens they fried
The Germans now too
Have God on their side.
I've learned to hate Russians
All through my whole life
If another war starts
It's them we must fight
To hate them and fear them
To run and to hide
And accept it all bravely
With God on my side.
But now we got weapons
Of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to
Then fire them we must
One push of the button
And a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions
When God's on your side.
In a many dark hour
I've been thinkin' about this
That Jesus Christ
Was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you
You'll have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot
Had God on his side.
So now as I'm leavin'
I'm weary as Hell
The confusion I'm feelin'
Ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head
And fall to the floor
If God's on our side
He'll stop the next war.
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