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I think that many of us are under the impression that profits earned in
the US, via trading or otherwise, are subject to US Federal income tax.
In order to insure that prospective payers who own/trade assets through
US brokers, the Federal Government requires non-US residents (and US
taxpayers not in good standing) to be relieved of 20% of their earnings.
New account forms from all US securities brokers for trading in all US
markets routinely include provision for taxation with the default being
20% withholding. The Doctor is generally above rudeness, however your
particular situation seems to have escaped his sense of belief.
Earl
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 1:24 PM
Subject: [RT] R: Re: R: R: R: R: Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> I am still waiting for you (or someone on the list) to tell me just
how much
> this withholding tax is? Is it more or less than Income taxes in the
US?
> Many thanks,
> Gram.
>
>
> >Bullshit !
> >
> >Gram wrote:
> >
> >> Suspect what you like. However, I trade regularly through European
> brokers
> >> on US and European markets, and I check slippage against my CQG
data. Any
> >> profits I make are always deposited into my account, minus such
slippage
> >> and, of course, commissions. Nothing else has ever been withheld.
> >> What is withheld, if anything (because you don't seem to want to
say how
> >> much should be held), seems then to be held from the broker,
certainly
> not
> >> from me!!!
> >> He must be a very generous broker not to charge me, what do you
think?
> >>
> >> Gram.
> >> p.s. your last sentence is terribly cynical - perhaps you secretly
like
> your
> >> fellow-traders being taxed heavily; perhaps it is your sense of
justice?
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> ---
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> >Any account which is opened to trade on US exchanges is required
to
> provide
> >> a US
> >> >tax ID # or the dealer(the brokerage house)has to pledge it's tax
id #.
> >> >Accounts without a US tax id # are subject to a non resident
withholding
> on
> >> ALL
> >> >proceeds and dividends. If the dealer doesn't get the information
it is
> >> >required to withhold... if it doesn't withhold against the
customer the
> >> >withholding occurs against the dealer account.
> >> >
> >> >I would assume you would have know these details. I really
wouldn't
> take
> >> the
> >> >time to address these issues. Not being familiar with them seems
to
> >> confirm
> >> >what one might suspect.
> >> >
> >> >Gram wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Before I tackle your points, would you please explain this
better,
> >> perhaps
> >> >> with an example:
> >> >> "You IB or BD is required to conform to non resident withholding
or be
> >> >> withheld themselves"
> >> >> Many thanks,
> >> >> Gram.
> >> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> >> >> Da: The Doctor <droex@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> A: gramario@xxxxxx <gramario@xxxxxx>
> >> >> Cc: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> Data: 25/06/2000 20:36
> >> >> Oggetto: Re: [RT] R: R: Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> >> >>
> >> >> >You can't have a securities account or futures account using US
> products
> >> >> without
> >> >> >either a social security number or be subject to non resident
> >> withholding.
> >> >> If
> >> >> >you open an account at Schwab, Refco or UBS to trade in the US
you
> have
> >> to
> >> >> >supply a US SS # or be subject to non resident withholding on
> dividends
> >> and
> >> >> >proceeds.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Now I assume you are going to claim you use a non US broker.
To
> clear a
> >> US
> >> >> >product they need to have a US sub which conforms.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >For example ... in securities and futures there are size
position
> >> reports
> >> >> which
> >> >> >your broker has to submit. They either have to have a SS# or
the
> >> brokers
> >> >> >SS#.... with an SS# the broker is subject to non resident
> withholding.
> >> >> There
> >> >> >are no exceptions.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >You can live on MARS it wouldn't make a difference. There
are
> asset
> >> >> havens
> >> >> >once you have the funds ..... no income havens using securities
or
> >> futures.
> >> >> >Even if your broker has an offshore sub or you trade through
the
> London
> >> >> office
> >> >> >of a US member.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Gram wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> First, I don't even understand what an IB or BD is?
> >> >> >> Second, I have no interest in US tax laws as they do not
concern
> me.
> >> >> >> Third, the IRS is only one tax authority in the world. I feel
> obliged
> >> to
> >> >> >> remind you that the US in only one state in the world, not
the
> whole
> >> >> world!
> >> >> >> If UK authorities do not/or cannot poke their noses into Sark
> affairs,
> >> I
> >> >> see
> >> >> >> no reason why US authorities should either. Further, surely
any
> >> serious
> >> >> tax
> >> >> >> planning should also take into account other tax authorities
also.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Best,
> >> >> >> Gram.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >I have a question? US tax laws require require non-resident
with
> >> >> holding.
> >> >> >> How
> >> >> >> >do you avoid that. You IB or BD is required to conform to
non
> >> resident
> >> >> >> >withholding or be withheld themselves. So assuming the
story is
> >> correct
> >> >> >> how do
> >> >> >> >you avoid the w/h issue.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Gram wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Here: http://www.sark.net/~xott/sarkinfo.html
> >> >> >> >> But where you live is only one part of it, you must also
> organize
> >> your
> >> >> >> >> affairs properly.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> >> >> >> >> Da: Eliot Kaplan <eliot@xxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> A: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>RealTraders
> >> >> <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> Data: 25/06/2000 19:31
> >> >> >> >> Oggetto: [RT] Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >Gram,
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Thanks for your response!
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I guess the next logical question is: Where (what country
&
> >> >> >> state/province)
> >> >> >> >> >have you found that is so resident/income friendly that
no
> taxes
> >> are
> >> >> >> >> >required?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >My wife is Canadian, so I often ponder whether I could
trade
> from
> >> >> there
> >> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> >> >significantly less taxes.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >I could get residency through her, and have often
considered
> >> >> Vancouver
> >> >> >> and
> >> >> >> >> >its environs a healthier alternative to Southern CA,
which is
> >> where I
> >> >> am
> >> >> >> >> >now.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >The US with its ever increasing legal controls, taxes,
> pollution
> >> and
> >> >> >> >> >overpopulation have certainly got me looking at a
potentially
> >> >> quieter,
> >> >> >> more
> >> >> >> >> >hassle free existence across the border.
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >If only winter weren't so extreme!
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Perhaps there are no "perfect" places?!
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >So, where are you pray tell?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Eliot
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >Eliot Kaplan
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >email: eliot@xxxxxxx
> >> >> >> >> >web: www.isu.com
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> >> Reply-To: gramario@xxxxxx
> >> >> >> >> >> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:43:06 +0200
> >> >> >> >> >> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> >> Subject: [RT] R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Eliot,
> >> >> >> >> >> I apologise for the fact that some people perhaps do
not
> realise
> >> >> that
> >> >> >> I
> >> >> >> >> >> neither live nor operate from or within the US.
> >> >> >> >> >> I long ago decided that these costs had to be dealt
with in
> >> order
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> be
> >> >> >> >> free
> >> >> >> >> >> from some encumberances. I made my plan (much as most
of us
> do
> >> when
> >> >> >> >> >> trading), and then took steps to nurse and guide it to
> fruition.
> >> >> >> >> >> I have no interest in the IRS or any other institution
and
> there
> >> is
> >> >> no
> >> >> >> >> >> reason why they should an interest in me..
> >> >> >> >> >> I am not a "declared tax free" as you put it; my
position is
> >> >> perfectly
> >> >> >> >> >> legal.
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> As to your question:
> >> >> >> >> >> "Do you not get audited and harassed by the IRS? There
might
> be
> >> a
> >> >> few
> >> >> >> >> >> significant time, energy, and dollar costs in that,
no?"
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> The answer is, "No, I do not get audited nor harassed
by
> anyone.
> >> >> >> Hence,
> >> >> >> >> >> there are no significant costs (whether they be of a
time,
> >> energy,
> >> >> or
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> >> dollar nature)."
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> Gram,
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Are you just not paying taxes?
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> I presume this means you are among the folks who
believe you
> do
> >> >> not
> >> >> >> need
> >> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> >>> pay, that the Constitution or whatever "asks" for
> contributions
> >> >> but
> >> >> >> does
> >> >> >> >> >> not
> >> >> >> >> >>> and doesn't have the right to "demand" them. Is this
so?
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> I've heard of the "declared tax free', but, like many,
I'm
> >> sure,
> >> >> have
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> >> hard
> >> >> >> >> >>> time believing that just not paying would work, and
not
> cause
> >> >> >> >> significant
> >> >> >> >> >>> problems.
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Want to enlighten us on what you mean? And how long
you've
> done
> >> it
> >> >> >> >> >>> successfully.
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Your point about other trading costs being
insignificant in
> >> >> relation
> >> >> >> to
> >> >> >> >> >>> taxes is clearly so, but I'm sure many of us have a
hard
> time
> >> with
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >> idea
> >> >> >> >> >>> we can just walk away from taxes with no governmental
> recourse.
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Do you not get audited and harassed by the IRS? There
might
> be
> >> a
> >> >> few
> >> >> >> >> >>> significant time, energy, and dollar costs in that,
no?
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Just an interested citizen, and I apologize to the
list that
> >> this
> >> >> >> >> inquiry
> >> >> >> >> >> is
> >> >> >> >> >>> perhaps off topic.
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Eliot
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> Eliot Kaplan
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> email: eliot@xxxxxxx
> >> >> >> >> >>> web: www.isu.com
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Reply-To: gramario@xxxxxx
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:39:18 +0200
> >> >> >> >> >>>> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: [RT] R: Re: Stocks and futures
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>> So many people spend time comparing brokers
commissions,
> data
> >> >> feeds,
> >> >> >> >> etc.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> which do indeed eat into their trading profits. But
instead
> of
> >> >> >> >> >> concentrating
> >> >> >> >> >>>> solely on trading costs, look at it the other way for
a
> >> moment:
> >> >> >> >> eliminate
> >> >> >> >> >>>> all tax, all accountants, all paperwork, inheritance
taxes,
> >> >> Capital
> >> >> >> >> Gains
> >> >> >> >> >>>> and all corporate taxes and see what this does to
your
> trading
> >> >> P&L.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Try thinking of it as $1 earned = $1 kept. It is much
> easier
> >> to
> >> >> >> become
> >> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> >> >>>> millionaire this way.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> If you save 30+% a year on such costs, the choice
between
> CQG
> >> or
> >> >> >> >> >> Quote.com
> >> >> >> >> >>>> becomes easier. You choose the best there is for your
> needs!
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Just an idea.
> >> >> >> >> >>>> Gram.
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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