|
PureBytes Links
Trading Reference Links
|
Earl,
I'm not above rudeness .. although I appreciate the comment. The guy is
simply a liar and the story changes minute by minute.
Earl Adamy wrote:
> I think that many of us are under the impression that profits earned in
> the US, via trading or otherwise, are subject to US Federal income tax.
> In order to insure that prospective payers who own/trade assets through
> US brokers, the Federal Government requires non-US residents (and US
> taxpayers not in good standing) to be relieved of 20% of their earnings.
> New account forms from all US securities brokers for trading in all US
> markets routinely include provision for taxation with the default being
> 20% withholding. The Doctor is generally above rudeness, however your
> particular situation seems to have escaped his sense of belief.
>
> Earl
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 1:24 PM
> Subject: [RT] R: Re: R: R: R: R: Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
>
> > I am still waiting for you (or someone on the list) to tell me just
> how much
> > this withholding tax is? Is it more or less than Income taxes in the
> US?
> > Many thanks,
> > Gram.
> >
> >
> > >Bullshit !
> > >
> > >Gram wrote:
> > >
> > >> Suspect what you like. However, I trade regularly through European
> > brokers
> > >> on US and European markets, and I check slippage against my CQG
> data. Any
> > >> profits I make are always deposited into my account, minus such
> slippage
> > >> and, of course, commissions. Nothing else has ever been withheld.
> > >> What is withheld, if anything (because you don't seem to want to
> say how
> > >> much should be held), seems then to be held from the broker,
> certainly
> > not
> > >> from me!!!
> > >> He must be a very generous broker not to charge me, what do you
> think?
> > >>
> > >> Gram.
> > >> p.s. your last sentence is terribly cynical - perhaps you secretly
> like
> > your
> > >> fellow-traders being taxed heavily; perhaps it is your sense of
> justice?
> >
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > ---
> > >> ------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> >Any account which is opened to trade on US exchanges is required
> to
> > provide
> > >> a US
> > >> >tax ID # or the dealer(the brokerage house)has to pledge it's tax
> id #.
> > >> >Accounts without a US tax id # are subject to a non resident
> withholding
> > on
> > >> ALL
> > >> >proceeds and dividends. If the dealer doesn't get the information
> it is
> > >> >required to withhold... if it doesn't withhold against the
> customer the
> > >> >withholding occurs against the dealer account.
> > >> >
> > >> >I would assume you would have know these details. I really
> wouldn't
> > take
> > >> the
> > >> >time to address these issues. Not being familiar with them seems
> to
> > >> confirm
> > >> >what one might suspect.
> > >> >
> > >> >Gram wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Before I tackle your points, would you please explain this
> better,
> > >> perhaps
> > >> >> with an example:
> > >> >> "You IB or BD is required to conform to non resident withholding
> or be
> > >> >> withheld themselves"
> > >> >> Many thanks,
> > >> >> Gram.
> > >> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> > >> >> Da: The Doctor <droex@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> A: gramario@xxxxxx <gramario@xxxxxx>
> > >> >> Cc: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> Data: 25/06/2000 20:36
> > >> >> Oggetto: Re: [RT] R: R: Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >You can't have a securities account or futures account using US
> > products
> > >> >> without
> > >> >> >either a social security number or be subject to non resident
> > >> withholding.
> > >> >> If
> > >> >> >you open an account at Schwab, Refco or UBS to trade in the US
> you
> > have
> > >> to
> > >> >> >supply a US SS # or be subject to non resident withholding on
> > dividends
> > >> and
> > >> >> >proceeds.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Now I assume you are going to claim you use a non US broker.
> To
> > clear a
> > >> US
> > >> >> >product they need to have a US sub which conforms.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >For example ... in securities and futures there are size
> position
> > >> reports
> > >> >> which
> > >> >> >your broker has to submit. They either have to have a SS# or
> the
> > >> brokers
> > >> >> >SS#.... with an SS# the broker is subject to non resident
> > withholding.
> > >> >> There
> > >> >> >are no exceptions.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >You can live on MARS it wouldn't make a difference. There
> are
> > asset
> > >> >> havens
> > >> >> >once you have the funds ..... no income havens using securities
> or
> > >> futures.
> > >> >> >Even if your broker has an offshore sub or you trade through
> the
> > London
> > >> >> office
> > >> >> >of a US member.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Gram wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >> First, I don't even understand what an IB or BD is?
> > >> >> >> Second, I have no interest in US tax laws as they do not
> concern
> > me.
> > >> >> >> Third, the IRS is only one tax authority in the world. I feel
> > obliged
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> remind you that the US in only one state in the world, not
> the
> > whole
> > >> >> world!
> > >> >> >> If UK authorities do not/or cannot poke their noses into Sark
> > affairs,
> > >> I
> > >> >> see
> > >> >> >> no reason why US authorities should either. Further, surely
> any
> > >> serious
> > >> >> tax
> > >> >> >> planning should also take into account other tax authorities
> also.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> Best,
> > >> >> >> Gram.
> > >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >I have a question? US tax laws require require non-resident
> with
> > >> >> holding.
> > >> >> >> How
> > >> >> >> >do you avoid that. You IB or BD is required to conform to
> non
> > >> resident
> > >> >> >> >withholding or be withheld themselves. So assuming the
> story is
> > >> correct
> > >> >> >> how do
> > >> >> >> >you avoid the w/h issue.
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >Gram wrote:
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> Here: http://www.sark.net/~xott/sarkinfo.html
> > >> >> >> >> But where you live is only one part of it, you must also
> > organize
> > >> your
> > >> >> >> >> affairs properly.
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> -----Messaggio originale-----
> > >> >> >> >> Da: Eliot Kaplan <eliot@xxxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> A: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>RealTraders
> > >> >> <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> Data: 25/06/2000 19:31
> > >> >> >> >> Oggetto: [RT] Re: R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> > >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >Gram,
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >Thanks for your response!
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >I guess the next logical question is: Where (what country
> &
> > >> >> >> state/province)
> > >> >> >> >> >have you found that is so resident/income friendly that
> no
> > taxes
> > >> are
> > >> >> >> >> >required?
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >My wife is Canadian, so I often ponder whether I could
> trade
> > from
> > >> >> there
> > >> >> >> >> with
> > >> >> >> >> >significantly less taxes.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >I could get residency through her, and have often
> considered
> > >> >> Vancouver
> > >> >> >> and
> > >> >> >> >> >its environs a healthier alternative to Southern CA,
> which is
> > >> where I
> > >> >> am
> > >> >> >> >> >now.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >The US with its ever increasing legal controls, taxes,
> > pollution
> > >> and
> > >> >> >> >> >overpopulation have certainly got me looking at a
> potentially
> > >> >> quieter,
> > >> >> >> more
> > >> >> >> >> >hassle free existence across the border.
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >If only winter weren't so extreme!
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >Perhaps there are no "perfect" places?!
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >So, where are you pray tell?
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >Eliot
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >Eliot Kaplan
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >email: eliot@xxxxxxx
> > >> >> >> >> >web: www.isu.com
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >> From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Reply-To: gramario@xxxxxx
> > >> >> >> >> >> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 17:43:06 +0200
> > >> >> >> >> >> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Subject: [RT] R: R: Re: Stocks and futures
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Hi Eliot,
> > >> >> >> >> >> I apologise for the fact that some people perhaps do
> not
> > realise
> > >> >> that
> > >> >> >> I
> > >> >> >> >> >> neither live nor operate from or within the US.
> > >> >> >> >> >> I long ago decided that these costs had to be dealt
> with in
> > >> order
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> >> be
> > >> >> >> >> free
> > >> >> >> >> >> from some encumberances. I made my plan (much as most
> of us
> > do
> > >> when
> > >> >> >> >> >> trading), and then took steps to nurse and guide it to
> > fruition.
> > >> >> >> >> >> I have no interest in the IRS or any other institution
> and
> > there
> > >> is
> > >> >> no
> > >> >> >> >> >> reason why they should an interest in me..
> > >> >> >> >> >> I am not a "declared tax free" as you put it; my
> position is
> > >> >> perfectly
> > >> >> >> >> >> legal.
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> As to your question:
> > >> >> >> >> >> "Do you not get audited and harassed by the IRS? There
> might
> > be
> > >> a
> > >> >> few
> > >> >> >> >> >> significant time, energy, and dollar costs in that,
> no?"
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> The answer is, "No, I do not get audited nor harassed
> by
> > anyone.
> > >> >> >> Hence,
> > >> >> >> >> >> there are no significant costs (whether they be of a
> time,
> > >> energy,
> > >> >> or
> > >> >> >> a
> > >> >> >> >> >> dollar nature)."
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >> Gram,
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Are you just not paying taxes?
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> I presume this means you are among the folks who
> believe you
> > do
> > >> >> not
> > >> >> >> need
> > >> >> >> >> to
> > >> >> >> >> >>> pay, that the Constitution or whatever "asks" for
> > contributions
> > >> >> but
> > >> >> >> does
> > >> >> >> >> >> not
> > >> >> >> >> >>> and doesn't have the right to "demand" them. Is this
> so?
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> I've heard of the "declared tax free', but, like many,
> I'm
> > >> sure,
> > >> >> have
> > >> >> >> a
> > >> >> >> >> >> hard
> > >> >> >> >> >>> time believing that just not paying would work, and
> not
> > cause
> > >> >> >> >> significant
> > >> >> >> >> >>> problems.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Want to enlighten us on what you mean? And how long
> you've
> > done
> > >> it
> > >> >> >> >> >>> successfully.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Your point about other trading costs being
> insignificant in
> > >> >> relation
> > >> >> >> to
> > >> >> >> >> >>> taxes is clearly so, but I'm sure many of us have a
> hard
> > time
> > >> with
> > >> >> >> the
> > >> >> >> >> idea
> > >> >> >> >> >>> we can just walk away from taxes with no governmental
> > recourse.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Do you not get audited and harassed by the IRS? There
> might
> > be
> > >> a
> > >> >> few
> > >> >> >> >> >>> significant time, energy, and dollar costs in that,
> no?
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Just an interested citizen, and I apologize to the
> list that
> > >> this
> > >> >> >> >> inquiry
> > >> >> >> >> >> is
> > >> >> >> >> >>> perhaps off topic.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Eliot
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> Eliot Kaplan
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> email: eliot@xxxxxxx
> > >> >> >> >> >>> web: www.isu.com
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> From: "Gram" <gramario@xxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Reply-To: gramario@xxxxxx
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:39:18 +0200
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Subject: [RT] R: Re: Stocks and futures
> > >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> So many people spend time comparing brokers
> commissions,
> > data
> > >> >> feeds,
> > >> >> >> >> etc.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> which do indeed eat into their trading profits. But
> instead
> > of
> > >> >> >> >> >> concentrating
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> solely on trading costs, look at it the other way for
> a
> > >> moment:
> > >> >> >> >> eliminate
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> all tax, all accountants, all paperwork, inheritance
> taxes,
> > >> >> Capital
> > >> >> >> >> Gains
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> and all corporate taxes and see what this does to
> your
> > trading
> > >> >> P&L.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Try thinking of it as $1 earned = $1 kept. It is much
> > easier
> > >> to
> > >> >> >> become
> > >> >> >> >> a
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> millionaire this way.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> If you save 30+% a year on such costs, the choice
> between
> > CQG
> > >> or
> > >> >> >> >> >> Quote.com
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> becomes easier. You choose the best there is for your
> > needs!
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Just an idea.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>> Gram.
> > >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >>
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
|