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I can see both sides of this argument. Look at in the context of probability. I
don't believe there is anyone bold enough to say they are 100% correct on every
trade. Therefore each trade has the probability of being a loser. The highest
degree of probability I have with my system is 80%, as indicated in my previous
postings of SnP targets. At once you realize that there is also a 20% chance that
any given trade will fail. The question then becomes, if the system is correct and
the trade taken has an 80% probability of success, what would it take to put that
into the 20% area. When the trade goes on you are immediately looking for the
signal that will tell you that you have a trade that will not reach the price
objective. Then you don't have to wait for a stop to take you out and have a
break-even or small profit trade turn into a loser. If the trade reverses and
triggers the stops and then continues in the direction projected in your analysis,
the trade can be reentered. I have seen more traders lose money because the get
stubborn and won't get out of a trade till it does what they WISH it would do.
Good holiday and good trading. Ira
David wrote:
> RT's. My 2 cents worth.
>
> I have not read Elders book but also agree with Ramon regarding positive
> decision making.
>
> The only time I pull the triger is when I am looking at my screen and say to
> myself
> "This is a buy" or "This is a sell". AND my indicators confirm my thoughts.
>
> If I said this is a loser and picked up the phone I would not be here for long.
>
> I think positive and use very strict money management rules! You must.
>
> David
>
> BrentinUtahsDixie wrote:
>
> > RT's,
> >
> > I have not read Elders Book but tend to agree with Ramon about the positive
> > decision making process.
> >
> > Some years ago the book Psycho-Cybernetics was very popular and although I
> > never read it at the time, I actually inherited a copy of it. After reading
> > it, it made sense to me that you can, to some extent, program your
> > subconscious mind to work for you by envisioning yourself doing and
> > succeeding at what ever you have in mind.
> >
> > I have always thought that there is a fine line between so called "positive
> > thinking" and self delusion. However, the way we learn is often a process of
> > envisioning ourselves doing something and then actually practicing doing
> > that until we have the confidence that we can do it. So I don't see this
> > kind of rehearsal as self delusion if done properly and completely. Meaning
> > that it must be done with the follow up planning, study, practice and the
> > actual gaining of experience.
> >
> > Seeing oneself as being able to be successful should not IMHO prevent a
> > person from seeing the business as something that must be carefully done in
> > order to be successful. That may mean to many that they should think of an
> > individual trade as a loser until it proves to be a winner.
> >
> > I cant believe that for example a quarter-back going into a football game
> > would be helped by saying "I am a loser".
> >
> > Brent
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ramon <rbarros@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 6:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> >
> > >Hi Guys
> > >
> > >Interesting thread here.
> > >
> > >There is no doubt that the psychological aspects of trading
> > >are critical to a trader's success. For me what is important
> > >is that a trader possess a set of empowering beliefs that
> > >translate to actions which lead to success. While the
> > >empowering beliefs may be universal, the actions tend
> > >to be trader specific.
> > >
> > >Elder's approach works for him. It may or may not work
> > >for others. It wouldn't work for me as my decision making
> > >process gravitates towards the positive rather than the
> > >negative.
> > >
> > >regards
> > >
> > >ray
> > >
> > >R Barros
> > >101/25 Market Street
> > >Sydney NSW 2000
> > >Australia
> > >
> > >Voice: 61 2 92673470
> > >Fax: 61 2 92673478
> > >E-Mail: rbarros@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >----------
> > >: From: Dennis L. Conn <dconn@xxxxxxxxx>
> > >: To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> > >: Date: Thursday, November 26, 1998 12:14 PM
> > >:
> > >: Hi Dave,
> > >:
> > >: When I first read it, it seemed to be exactly the opposite of the
> > >approach
> > >: I would take to trade. But the thinking behind it begins to make sense if
> > >: you can equate losing with alcoholism; according to Dr. Elder, your focus
> > >: should be on transcending the behavioral patterns that cause you to lose
> > >: consistently. If you have demonstrated a pattern that will inevitably
> > >: destroy your account, he advises using the same approach as AA - instead
> > >of
> > >: standing up and introducing yourself as an alcoholic to a group of
> > >people,
> > >: he recommends 'introducing' yourself to your computer each trading day in
> > >: the same way, substituting the word loser for alcoholic. By reminding
> > >: oneself of the tendency, one can avoid it - at least that's what I get
> > >from
> > >: it.
> > >:
> > >: Since a lot of our problems in trading stem from ingrained behavior that
> > >we
> > >: have to transcend, and from habits of thought that we need to change,
> > >maybe
> > >: there's some merit to his approach. Maybe it's an intermediate step on
> > >the
> > >: path to becoming the person one needs to be in order to be consistently
> > >: successful as a trader. Whether it works for everyone, I don't know; I do
> > >: know that when I started trading, I dismissed the psychological aspect as
> > >: unimportant. But these days I find myself more interested in that than in
> > >: any possible profits, and see as much need to examine and learn more
> > >about
> > >: myself as I once saw to examine charts and learn analysis - maybe more.
> > >:
> > >: Regards,
> > >:
> > >: Dennis C.
> > >:
> > >: -----Original Message-----
> > >: From: David Hunt <adest@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 19:28
> > >: Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> > >:
> > >:
> > >: >I must say when Dr Elder said in his Psychology Video say to yourself "I
> > >am
> > >: >a Loser" each day before trading, he lost me. Did anyone else have this
> > >: >effect from the book?
> > >: >
> > >: >David Hunt
> > >: >http://www.adest.com.au
> > >: >
> > >: >
> > >: >----------
> > >: >| From: RAY RAFFURTY <rraff@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: >| To: tesla@xxxxxxx; RealTraders Discussion Group
> > >: ><realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: >| Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> > >: >| Date: Wednesday, November 25, 1998 11:35 AM
> > >: >|
> > >: >| Elder's book is quite good, but contains only about 3 chapters
> > >: >about
> > >: >| the psychology of trading. The rest is devoted to descriptions and
> > >: >methods
> > >: >| of using some of the more basic and readily available indicators. He
> > >: >then
> > >: >| develops these into trading systems and presents some risk management
> > >: >| techniques. After reading it you will probably want to go to some
> > >more
> > >: >| detailed texts on the subjects that interest you. For an excellent
> > >book
> > >: >on
> > >: >| the psychology of trading try "The Disciplined Trader" by Mark
> > >Douglas.
> > >: >|
> > >: >| Good luck
> > >and
> > >: >| good trading,
> > >: >|
> > >: >Ray
> > >: >| Raffurty
> > >: >|
> > >: >| -----Original Message-----
> > >: >| From: Terry S. Smith <tesla@xxxxxxx>
> > >: >| To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: >| Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 11:11 AM
> > >: >| Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> > >: >|
> > >: >|
> > >: >| >Have never read Elders, Trading for a Living, but I have heard great
> > >: >things
> > >: >| >about it, maybe I will add it to my trading library. E-mail me
> > >privately
> > >: >in
> > >: >| >this matter.
> > >: >| >-----Original Message-----
> > >: >| >From: Mike Campbell <mcampbell@xxxxxx>
> > >: >| >To: tesla@xxxxxxx <tesla@xxxxxxx>; realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >: >| ><realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >: >| >Date: Tuesday, November 24, 1998 8:54 AM
> > >: >| >Subject: Re: Wrong Lessons for trading.
> > >: >| >
> > >: >| >
> > >: >| >>Terry S. Smith writes:
> > >: >| >>
> > >: >| >>> The best book I have found to unlearn basic human nature is
> > >MINDTRAPS
> > >: >| >>> UNLOCKING THE KEY TO INVESTMENT SUCCESS By Roland Barach. Before
> > >: >| >>> reading the book it did not occur to me that I needed to shift my
> > >: >| >>> perspective 180 degrees to be successful. After reading it I
> > >began
> > >: >to
> > >: >| >>> realize why I was struggling to making any money in my investing
> > >: >| >>> persist. It lists 88 psychological snares or Mindtraps that we
> > >must
> > >: >| >>> unlearn to become successful in this business. The ISBN is
> > >: >| >>> 0-935219-07-2. Happy trading,
> > >: >| >>
> > >: >| >>How would you rate this book with respect to Elder's "Trading for a
> > >: >| >>Living"? I'm reading that now, and it's an eye-opener for me.
> > >: >| >>
> > >: >| >>
> > >: >| >
> > >: >|
> > >: >|
> > >
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