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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> Here is what I wrote:
> "If you are implying that those who believe in God are unwise...then do
your
> homework, history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish."
>
> and you wrote:
> > What proof? Where's the proof?
>
> I gave you one example of James Madison being a very religious man and he
> was not unwise.
So. you say that James Madison was a very religious man and that he was not
unwise.
That's very interesting and I don't dispute it that but I fail to see how
that proves your assertion that:
"history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish".
> If you study Communism which basically IS a form of Huminisiam and you
will
> see the failure of it.
It's mysticism. Sacrificing the self, be it for the state, deity or whatever
is mysticism.
Mysticism and humanism are mutually exclusive. so your statement that:
<<The humanistic view has been tried.....it always fails.>>
Is incorrect. It has never failed because it has never been tried.
> The United States became one of the greatest countries in
history....because
> of the vision and conviction of VERY religious men.
This is just YOU choosing to attribute their greatness to their religious
beliefs.
It could just as easily be attributed to their desire to have all men be
considered
equal and to escape from the shackles of a feudal/monarchic Europe or the
fact that
they liked wearing white wigs and breeches.
Your conclusions about the causes which effect a result are nothing
more than wishful thinking. You're not doing any jury work soon are you?.
> All of the atrocities in history can
> be traced to Men in power who deceive others with there philosophy,
> religion, mysticism, whatever term you wish to use....and you believe that
> the elimination of these will bring your Utopia.
You answered your own question.
Without the mysticism that you accept must have existed, how would
they/could
they deceive others to commit the atrocities?
> You would still have the evil of the man.
Yes - but without the deceptive mysticism, they are impotent.
Their power to control and mobilize others to do their bidding is
eliminated.
>> Look at history, all of the good things also came from someone else's
philosophy?>>
You continually make blanket references to 'history' without seeing the
historically obvious
i.e. So did all the BAD things.
>>(see above example)! >>
I did. It wasn't a good one was it?
> I believe in the God of our Forefathers whom wrote:
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
created
> equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
> Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
The Creator may or may not exist but the Creator may have nothing to do with
your religion.
Your religion, may be man-made, fallacious and designed to deceive as you
mentioned earlier.
> To enforce your belief would require that we couldn't even have this
> discussion.
Who said anything about 'enforcing' my belief. It is mysticism that is
enforced.
It isn't an accident that most children in India are Hindus, Muslims in Iran
and
Christians in the U.S. They don't freely choose those religions do they?
> but because we live in a country that has the views of our
> Forefathers.....we can have this discussion in peace.
These would be the same ones that had people burnt at the stake for
believing
in witchraft instead of having a peaceful discussion would it ?
> It is these things (freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the
> press, the right to bear arms, ect, ect..) that make this the best Country
> in the world.
Yes it is. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
> The humanistic fantasy that you describe is flawed in its
> logic....simply because there cannot be people with-out philosophy /
> religion / belief system.
There is no greater fantasy than that of mysticism.
Have you been at Adolph's smokes again?
Rgds,
Kim
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