|
PureBytes Links
Trading Reference Links
|
JO
This has the a ring of truth to it. The only book I have read on him was
"Gann Simplified" and I cant honestly say I got much out it. I am currently
reading "Fooled by Randomness" and find that enlightening.
Regards Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: November 23, 2003 11:46 AM
Subject: [Metastockusers] The Gann Thing
> Hi Martin,
>
> I avoid the Gann debates because the people who like him defend him
> vigorously. When I was looking at Gann's work, I read some history on
> Gann to see where his work came from. Gann was fascinated with the
> relationship between price and time. He liked geometry also so he
> applied geometry to his study of time and price. The problem was he
> also liked astrology and traveled the world studying it too. Some of
> his favorite indicators came right out of Indian (country India)
> astrology tools. He also used astrology in his study of the market
> cycles.
>
> Gann was reputed to be a legendary trader, yet there is little
> historial evidence he did much trading. Other famous traders living
> in the same era have documented evidence of their trading histories.
> Gann was the "infomercial king" of his time. He sold educational
> materials and did seminars on his trading methods. He charged $5000 a
> person to attend. Most market historians believe it was the selling
> of his trading methods that made him his money. Jesse Livermore was
> the most successful trader in that era and he didn't use anything as
> complex as Gann.
>
> The last problem I have with Gann is no one has yet to prove that
> over any long period of time his methods out perform buy and hold.
> Here's a pitch from Lambert-Gann publishing. If this were true do you
> think that the major banks on Wall Street would use anything else! I
> have never found one bank using Gann. Nor have I found anyone who can
> show that they are making an astounding 90% successful trades using
> Gann. Everytime someone fails to make money with Gann, they are told
> it's because they don't know how to use his methods properly. From
> what I've been able to find out to this point I have concluded that
> Gann was the only one who could use Gann methods successfully. You
> will notice the advertisement doesn't say you will have 90%
> successful trades. In fact, it doesn't even say you will make money.
>
> "W.D. Gann was one of the greatest traders of all time. His ability
> to call market turns was, and still is, legendary. His profitable
> trades in the commodity and stock markets was an astounding 90%+!
>
> His trading profits are estimated to be a staggering $50 million
> dollars during the first half of the 20th century. Traders who have
> studied his techniques have found great success in markets all over
> the world."
>
> That being said, I am a proponent of whatever works. If you can make
> money with Gann, who cares if he heard voices and talked to himself.
>
> Good Trading Martin
>
> JO
>
>
> --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Blain" <martin@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > JO
> > You said it much more eloquently than me. Thank you.
> > Just to stick up for Gann a little and to continue the smoke
> analogy. Gann
> > was quite a mathematician. The star alignment thing may have been
> smoke and
> > mirrors!
> > Regards Martin
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxx>
> > To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: November 22, 2003 11:11 PM
> > Subject: [Metastockusers] Re: Martin B and Ariel on Whinning
> >
> >
> > > Your post is interesting and it's a view point I hear often. I
> have
> > > traded stocks using both fundemental analysis and technical
> analysis.
> > > I find a combination is the best way to make money in the long
> run.
> > >
> > > The approach a successful trader takes is to design his trading
> > > business around his personality and emotinoal make-up as opposed
> to
> > > designing it based on what's most profitable or the "best"
> > > indicators. I see that post on this site all the time usually in
> form
> > > of the lame question. "Let's do a poll and find out what
> everybody's
> > > favorite indicators are". That's a ridiculous question. It's like
> > > trying to decide what color to wear based on everybody else's
> > > favorite color.
> > >
> > > I have not met a single person who could not learn to improve the
> > > return on their investments by using simple moving averages so
> they
> > > know when to buy and when to sell. That's TA.
> > >
> > > The thing that's really interesting is that there are very few
> > > systems that beat moving averages. According to Robert Colby the
> > > author of The Encyclopedia of Technical Market Indicators, the
> bible
> > > of backtesting, a simple moving average system out performed by
> and
> > > hold since 1928 by 51,712,052% Yeah, it's 52 million percent
> better
> > > than buy and hold. That's 10s of billions more in profit with a
> > > capital B. Of course that doesn't include taxes, commissions and
> rake
> > > off by crooks. After that, you would only have $1.98 left, but
> hey,
> > > it's money.
> > >
> > > Too many people like to make things complex. Just look at Gann
> > > theory. Gann based his work on Indian astrology and star
> alignment,
> > > yet there are thousands of people who think trading with Gann
> gives
> > > them an edge. Well, you could call Miss Cleo on the psychic
> hotline
> > > and get better stock picks. Random Walk theory has taught us
> > > that. "But Gann is so complicated, it must work." Yeah, it does,
> and
> > > it slices, dices and cuts julian fries too.
> > >
> > > You are right that a person doesn't have to know how to program a
> > > thing in MS to make money. None of the sytems I use require one
> line
> > > of code--not one. I've automated some processes for convience, but
> > > after testing over 500 indicators and more than 200 experts
> nothing
> > > has beat the simple stuff I use. I'm finishing up the testing of
> many
> > > formulas from Colby's book and still nothing is performing better.
> > >
> > > However, I disagree about reading the manual. You don't have to
> sit
> > > down and read it front to back but you need to learn to use your
> > > tools. A lot of people won't lift a finger to educate themselves.
> > > They think it should all be handed to them on a platter. Ariel
> got it
> > > right. If they won't read the manual they have no business trying
> to
> > > trade for a living. The highest probability is they're going to
> lose
> > > their capital and it's back to 7-11.
> > >
> > > Some people are lucky in that trading success has nothing to do
> with
> > > brains. That's been proven over and over, but it does have a lot
> to
> > > do with laziness. Intellectually lazy people fail at this
> business. I
> > > didn't say IQ was the issue. I said how much you are willing to
> use
> > > the IQ you have is the issue. I have made suggestions to people
> > > regarding what books to read. They read them, and then I have to
> > > explain it to them three or four times, they read the book again,
> I
> > > explain it again, and the next thing you know they're making
> money.
> > > What a surprise! Am I upset I have to repeat my explanations more
> > > than once. No, because they're doing their part.
> > >
> > > Of course, I recommend the same material to other people who never
> > > read it, continue to ask the same questions everyday and can't
> > > understand why their capital account is shrinking. I've got a
> couple
> > > of clues.
> > >
> > > Ariel gave some of the best trading advice I've read on here. It's
> > > too bad more people don't get it.
> > >
> > > Now that being said, I started in TA 30 years ago writing computer
> > > programs for finance professors who were looking for the grail.
> They
> > > thought computers were going to do it for them. Then came complex
> > > geometry, neural nets, chaos theory and fractals. Oh well, those
> > > moving averages aren't looking for a place to hide. They know who
> > > will still be around next year.
> > >
> > > You are right also in that some people are trying to predict the
> > > direction of the smoke. I use the smoke to keep me out of the
> fire. I
> > > can read it well enough to do that. I can also tell where not to
> > > stand to keep from choking.
> > >
> > > That has made me more money than all of my finance professors put
> > > together, and that's good enough for me.
> > >
> > > If you can see what's right in front of you, you are one of the
> few.
> > > I hope you are using that to your advantage. Some people are too
> lazy
> > > to clean their glasses so they too can see.
> > >
> > > Whatever works! I think that's what you said. Good post.
> > >
> > > JO
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Blain"
> <martin@xxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > > If I can weigh in again here. Does all the quantifying of
> trading
> > > stocks really pay off?
> > > > I compare it to analyzing a plume of smoke and saying " well if
> > > this happens then I will do this and if that doesn't work I will
> bail
> > > out here. The hardest part of this ( and maybe the easiest to a
> > > person smarter than me) is to explain why you cant quantify
> something
> > > that is basically random. Now don't get me wrong I didn't say you
> > > cant use TA. I just don't believe that you can use the systems in
> > > MS. All this code and crap is just "something to aspire to" all
> the
> > > while the information is right in front of you if you can see
> it. So
> > > if you don't need the crap built in than don't waste your time
> > > reading the manual!
> > > > Regards Martin B
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ariel Devulsky
> > > > To: Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Sent: November 22, 2003 3:10 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Metastockusers] Re: Group benefits and Whining
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Why not send the rules list or create rules and send to new
> > > menbers?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Read The Fuckinī Manual!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: manohohman
> > > > To: Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:40 PM
> > > > Subject: [Metastockusers] Re: Group benefits and Whining
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Kevin, I agree completely with Martin's post. On this site
> and
> > > the
> > > > other Metastock site there are too many people who won't
> bother
> > > to
> > > > look in the manual or use the help screen and it's not
> because
> > > they
> > > > don't think to do it, they just don't want to "think"
> period.
> > > >
> > > > In addition, a lot of people think everything should
> be "free"
> > > and if
> > > > it's not, they'll try to find some place to steal it from.
> > > These
> > > > people want to be "traders". If you're willing to lose your
> > > capital
> > > > account but spend nothing on your education, you're not a
> > > trader,
> > > > you're a moron.
> > > >
> > > > I post on this and the other site constantly. I get a lot of
> > > email
> > > > wanting questions answered, or my entire trading system, or
> > > help
> > > > learning to trade, or emails that are filled with general
> > > insults.
> > > >
> > > > They all want "free" help, but the help isn't free. It
> costs me
> > > a lot
> > > > of time and my time is valuable. Ninety percent of the
> people
> > > who are
> > > > asking me for stuff don't treat my time like it's valuable.
> In
> > > fact,
> > > > if I tell them in a polite way that I can't help them learn
> to
> > > trade,
> > > > or I'm not going to give away my systems unless they have
> > > something
> > > > to share, I usually get a terse response implying something
> > > nasty
> > > > about my character.
> > > >
> > > > Many of the emails I receive act as if they have a right to
> > > answers
> > > > because this is a MS support group. That's BS. Kevin, you
> are
> > > right,
> > > > no one has to answer any body's question. I've made the
> mistake
> > > of
> > > > answering some that I should have skipped, and I wound up
> > > paying for
> > > > it.
> > > >
> > > > I would appreciate it if you would do what I've been doing.
> > > Start
> > > > posting all kinds of references, indicator code, systems
> code,
> > > > answering people's programming problems, etc. and then
> you'll
> > > get to
> > > > see what I've been seeing everyday, and you won't like it.
> > > >
> > > > Martin may not have been eloquent, but he was right.
> Newbie's
> > > get
> > > > pissed off when I, or someone else, tell them to read the
> > > manual or
> > > > use the help screen. They fire back a nasty email saying
> they
> > > tried
> > > > to read the manual but what they want to know is not in
> there.
> > > Huffy,
> > > > huffy, huffy. In addition to my career, I spent 30 years as
> a
> > > college
> > > > professor at 4 different universities. In the last ten
> years,
> > > I've
> > > > seen the same thing. Students don't want to bother reading
> > > anything,
> > > > or researching to find their own answers. I'm suppose to
> tell
> > > them
> > > > everything they need to know, and I should never ask them a
> > > question
> > > > on an exam I didn't tell them the answer too! Well here's an
> > > answer.
> > > > Get off your lazy ass, put your brain in gear, or learn to
> > > say "Would
> > > > you like that supersized," sir?
> > > >
> > > > I wonder how these people think I learned to program, or
> where
> > > all
> > > > the references I post come from. I guess I just woke up with
> > > them on
> > > > my pillow. I worked 17 hours yesterday. Six hours trading,
> and
> > > eleven
> > > > hours testing equations I found in reference books. In a few
> > > days
> > > > I'll get tons of requests wanting me to tell them what I
> found
> > > so
> > > > they don't have to spend 11 hours themselves. Some of what I
> > > learned
> > > > I might share, and some of it I won't. Whatever I choose to
> > > share is
> > > > a gift.
> > > >
> > > > Sure there are some great people on here, and on the other
> > > board. I
> > > > correspond with some of them. We exchange ideas, code and
> > > systems. WE
> > > > EXCHANGE!
> > > >
> > > > Everytime I've asked anyone on here to share their systems
> or
> > > code,
> > > > even if it isn't good, they decline. Surprise, surprise,
> > > surprise.
> > > > Their work is too important, or secret, to share.
> > > >
> > > > I've done a number of postings lately trying to elevate the
> > > amount of
> > > > discussion, references, sharing, and exchanging that goes
> on on
> > > this
> > > > board, and the other one, so the board is not merely a forum
> > > for
> > > > people who can't read.
> > > >
> > > > There has been a slight increase in the amount of sharing
> but
> > > it's
> > > > not nearly where it should be.
> > > >
> > > > I'll keep posting as long as I feel I have the time and
> energy,
> > > but
> > > > I'm also going to speak my mind about some of the garbage
> that
> > > goes
> > > > on. It mostly falls on deaf years I know, but that's okay
> > > because
> > > > I've given away enough that once in-a-while I get to whine.
> > > >
> > > > JO
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Kevin
> <kevin_barry@xxxx>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Martin,
> > > > >
> > > > > I think that your posting is a little unfair. I am not
> sure
> > > if you
> > > > are
> > > > > referring to any group members in particular but I must
> say
> > > that no
> > > > > postings on this forum in recent times have evoked
> anything
> > > close
> > > > to a
> > > > > similar reaction in me. Sure, there are often questions
> > > posted that
> > > > could
> > > > > be answered by looking in the respective manual but, in my
> > > > experience, not
> > > > > everybody automatically thinks of doing that. Indeed, the
> > > > apparently
> > > > > obvious questions are sometimes quite thought-provoking
> and,
> > > > personally
> > > > > speaking, I have got answers here to questions that I
> would
> > > never
> > > > even have
> > > > > thought of asking.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is no obligation to respond to any posting and the
> > > nature of
> > > > the post
> > > > > is more often than not pretty obvious immediately. So, if
> it
> > > is
> > > > going to be
> > > > > an irritation to you, why not just delete it immediately?
> > > What
> > > > impresses me
> > > > > are the regular contributors who are quick to respond to
> > > pleas for
> > > > help,
> > > > > however simple or stupid, and are extremely generous with
> > > their
> > > > knowledge
> > > > > and experience. Without the questions, the rest of us
> might
> > > never
> > > > get to
> > > > > hear these guys speak.
> > > > >
> > > > > I also get the impression that you are a little
> contemptuous
> > > of
> > > > people who
> > > > > seem to be asking for something for nothing. Personally,
> I am
> > > in
> > > > complete
> > > > > agreement with what I think that you are saying, i.e. if
> one
> > > uses
> > > > tools in
> > > > > order to make money then those tools should be paid for.
> > > However,
> > > > you may
> > > > > not realise that, in addition to people who trade
> > > professionally or
> > > > > part-time, there are many people who are attracted to the
> > > idea of
> > > > trading
> > > > > and enjoy associating with the trading community, hobby-
> > > traders if
> > > > you
> > > > > like, who do not actually trade. There is a chap who
> attends
> > > my
> > > > investment
> > > > > club meetings who has an in-depth knowledge of the market
> and
> > > is an
> > > > expert
> > > > > in several trading techniques. He occasionally lectures on
> > > various
> > > > subjects
> > > > > and he is actually pretty good at it. He has never placed
> a
> > > trade
> > > > in his
> > > > > life. Do I begrudge him collecting a bit of free software,
> > > > downloading free
> > > > > end-of-day prices and playing around with them in his
> spare
> > > time?
> > > > No. As
> > > > > far as I can see, people like him are doing none of us any
> > > harm
> > > > whatsoever.
> > > > >
> > > > > A forum such as this needs lots of input at all levels in
> > > order to
> > > > stay
> > > > > alive. I sincerely hope that nobody is ever reluctant to
> post
> > > > because they
> > > > > think that their contribution may not be worthy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Viva la difference.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > Kevin
> > > > >
> > > > > At 12:29 22/11/2003 +0000, you wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Hi folks,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >in my opinion to share is just fair. Everyone that is a
> > > member of
> > > > > >this group should try to contribute to the benefits of
> the
> > > whole
> > > > > >group, not just ask (simple and stupid stuff) and take.
> This
> > > doen't
> > > > > >not mean that a newbie shouldn't post his or her
> questions.
> > > But
> > > > what
> > > > > >about first trying to solve the problem by yourself and
> show
> > > the
> > > > > >group the results of this effort and then ask the
> question.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >But now FREE - for all of you not wanting to share and
> just
> > > begging
> > > > > >for 'free stuff':
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John Slauson from Adaptick is giving away for free
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Adaptick Trend Index
> > > > > >Adaptick Pivot Volume indicator
> > > > > >Adaptick Volume Acceleration Index
> > > > > >17-page Adobe PDF Manual for reference and intepretation
> > > > > >
> > > > > >http://www.adaptick.com/3-pack/index.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > >pretty useful and - did I mention it - free (you dont
> have to
> > > > > >contribute ;-)!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Martin
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > > >Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/zMEolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|