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JO,
Thanks, I will give it a spin,... Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 11:12 PM
Subject: [Metastockusers] Re: Questions---New Metastock Add-on Reviewed
> That's right, Bill. You may find out that some of the standard
> indicators perform better than the ones you are using because their
> performance is much improved after the optimization. In addition, you
> can test a variety of indicators that handle volatility across the
> stocks you like to trade and find out which ones perform the best on
> those stocks. Then you can test your own and compare their
> performance to best ones from ICE.
>
> You can then combine yours with the ones ICE has suggested and see
> how the system works. I don't use the absolute opt values from ICE. I
> make adjustments after putting the indicator on a chart and comparing
> it's performance against other indicators I use.
>
> Basically, the new system I just completed only uses one indicator
> gleaned from ICE. The other two indicators were proven indicators
> I've used in my other systems, but I did tune one of them based on
> ICE recommendations. Now the system is in balance and tells me
> exactly what I want to know. I was able to find the third indicator
> quickly and save myself a lot of testing time.
>
> Many people have systems they like and don't realize that their
> indicators are too correlated to be effective in combination. That
> will eventually catch up with them.
>
> In addition some indicators work better under specific market
> conditions. Sometimes you have to change an indicator because the
> operating environment is different. ICE makes that easier and lets
> you check on the performance of your indicators from time to time in
> an objective way.
>
> ICE has several channel and band indicators available under
> volatility. BB Bands, Trading Envelopes, Price Channels and
> Projection Bands.
>
> JO
>
>
>
> --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Bill Hebert"
> <billhebert@xxxx> wrote:
> > JO,
> >
> > Good points, basically what I get from your comments is I could
> develop
> > systems with ICE and then see if my own indicators and unique
> settings
> > can improve on it, or I could add my unique indicators/settings on
> my own
> > afterwards in standard Metastock System Tester.
> >
> > My current system does not use the standard indicators and/or the
> common
> > settings that Metastock has them set-up to work at. I do allot with
> > volatility
> > breakouts and coding with bands and channels that is rather
> unique. I do
> > like
> > the StochRSI on the QQQ and CSCO but that is a trade frequency
> thing for
> > me. Some of my work is still in the development and testing stages
> and I
> > thought
> > ICE would help speed up the process.
> >
> > If you mix ICE and Unique, you are saying that once you enter
> anything
> > unique
> > you are back to the Metastock System Tester. Still an opportunity
> for me to
> > develop a system in ICE and see if my Volatility Breakout systems
> over
> > performs
> > or underperforms.
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to do such a complete analysis of the ICE
> > package.
> > Reports like this are a real value to us other Metastock users.
> >
> > -- Bill
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxx>
> > To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:40 PM
> > Subject: [Metastockusers] Questions---New Metastock Add-on Reviewed
> >
> >
> > > Bill, you can't input your own indicators into ICE. You can test
> your
> > > indicators with the systems tester like always but you will have
> to
> > > do the programming yourself.
> > >
> > > The 74 indicators that ICE tests are the ones in Technical
> Analysis A
> > > to Z, and come as a subset of MS.
> > >
> > > Those indicators are the most commonly used ones. I've reviewed
> and
> > > tested somewhere over 500 indicators (the actual number is close
> to
> > > 700 but I've lost count somewhere in the blur) None of the ones
> I've
> > > tested are really any better than the ones that come with MS. It's
> > > just that different people have different personal perferences.
> > >
> > > As far as the thresholds go, the indicators are first tested with
> the
> > > thersholds that are commonly used such as the RSI(14) with 70 30
> > > thresholds. When the indicator is optimized on the group of stocks
> > > you select, the period is optimized along with the thresholds. So
> the
> > > report gives you all the information that's needed--after
> > > optimization you might get an RSI(22) thresholds 75 25 for
> example.
> > >
> > > StochOSC and Stoch Momentum Index are the only Stochs included.
> They
> > > are the ones that come with MS to begin with.
> > >
> > > The bottom line is you can write your own code for whatever you
> want
> > > to test in the Systems Tester. ICE gives you the parameters it
> uses
> > > to run systems tests, so you can setup your tests on your custom
> > > indicators the same way as ICE. ICE simply has consistent and
> stable
> > > tests and optimizations already programmed for the 74 indicators
> that
> > > are included.
> > >
> > > I know you'll probably disagree with this, but I've looked at
> dozens
> > > of SToch indicators, and none of them tell you anything that
> can't be
> > > read from simpler standard indicators. Almost everybody in TA,
> > > especially the ones who write books, feels the need to come up
> with
> > > new versions of indicators so their stuff looks unique. It sells
> the
> > > books. But in reality, it's hardly unique. Out of every 500 or so
> new
> > > indicators that get programmed and written about, there's one that
> > > makes something work better, but that's about it.
> > >
> > > Here's a link to e-analytics that explains it in detail. Their
> > > article summarizes my experiences in looking at indicators.
> > >
> > > http://www.e-analytics.com/sysind.htm
> > >
> > > For me, this program was well worth the price. $99 is nothing in
> the
> > > world of TA.
> > >
> > > JO
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Bill Hebert"
> > > <billhebert@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > JO, Got a few questions?
> > > >
> > > > I like the concept of ICE but would like to hear from an
> existing
> > > user
> > > > if it is also flexible enough for users to add their own
> indicators
> > > to the
> > > > the program or change how the indicators are being used in the
> > > program.
> > > >
> > > > Can the ICE program accept new indicators in the 4 different
> groups
> > > > that you state for managing colinearlity?
> > > >
> > > > For example: If there was no StochRSI in the Velocity indicator
> > > section
> > > >
> > > > Could I add my own and have it work with the program?
> > > >
> > > > Or if there was a StochRSI, could I add my own version to the
> > > program?
> > > >
> > > > Another question is on the usage of indicators
> > > >
> > > > Can the ICE program allow for unique indicator usage?
> > > >
> > > > For example: The RSI uses say 30 and 70 for trigger lines.
> > > >
> > > > Can I set to trigger when it goes above or set it to trigger
> when
> > > it falls
> > > > back below that same level. Goes above 80 to trigger or drops
> > > > down below 80 to trigger?
> > > >
> > > > Or say I want to use the RSI with a 50 trigger line crossover
> > > instead
> > > > of a dual 30/70 line overbought/oversould crossover indicator.
> > > >
> > > > I have reviewed that ICE program from the site but did not see
> > > anything
> > > > that would support answering my questions.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > -- Bill
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxx>
> > > > To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 5:30 PM
> > > > Subject: [Metastockusers] New Metastock Add-on Reviewed
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I just got an early release copy of a new MS add-on called ICE.
> > > >
> > > > Before reviewing the product, here's a disclaimer for all the
> > > > conspiracy theory compulsives out there. I have no involvement
> with
> > > > either Equis or Adaptick, the company who produces the program.
> I'm
> > > > not married to the sister of someone who works for either one of
> > > > them, and nobody there is my cousin. They don't send me birthday
> > > > cards with money inside, and so far neither of company has even
> > > > bought me a hot dog.
> > > >
> > > > The product's name is ICE, which tells you absolutely nothing
> about
> > > > the program. I will say this: I REALLY LIKE THIS ONE!
> > > >
> > > > I haven't said that often about any add-on but this time, I
> really
> > > > got my money's worth out of it.
> > > >
> > > > ICE is a specialized system tester program that takes 72
> indicators
> > > > and divides them into four relatively uncorrelated categories.
> The
> > > > indicators in each category can be tested on, and optimized for,
> > > any
> > > > group of stocks in any time frame.
> > > >
> > > > What this product does is save huge amounts of time and energy
> when
> > > > building and testing trading systems.
> > > >
> > > > All trading systems rely on some kind of indicators. However, if
> > > you
> > > > are going use two, three or four indicators, each indicator
> should
> > > be
> > > > measuring something different. For example, if you like RSI and
> > > > Stochastics, fine. Just don't put both of them in your system
> > > because
> > > > you are essentially measuring the same thing with both
> indicators.
> > > >
> > > > Both are momentum indicators. RSI measures closing price
> relative
> > > to
> > > > the previous close, and Stoch measures closing price relative to
> > > the
> > > > range. This might sound different, but they're too closely
> > > correlated
> > > > to be very effective when used together.
> > > >
> > > > In the ICE program both of these are considered velocity
> > > indicators.
> > > >
> > > > The point of having different indicators is to increase the
> > > > probability of a good trade by increasing the amount of NEW
> > > > information provided by each indicator. If the indicators are
> too
> > > > similar-measuring essentially the same thing-the combination
> only
> > > > marginally increases the probability of making a better trade.
> If
> > > the
> > > > indicators are sufficiently different, then the new information
> > > makes
> > > > a larger and more important contribution to the increase in
> > > > probability of a good entry or exit point.
> > > >
> > > > However, that's not the end of the story. Even if you have
> > > indicators
> > > > that have very little colinearity (okay, take deep breathes-it
> > > means
> > > > they're measuring the same things-i.e. Points on a straight
> line.)
> > > > there is still the issue of how well any given indicator works
> on a
> > > > group of stocks.
> > > >
> > > > In a good trading system all the indicators give good signals on
> > > the
> > > > stocks being traded, and they are distinct enough to provide
> sound
> > > > entries and exits when used together.
> > > >
> > > > (I need to pause for a moment to make a small point outside of
> ICE.
> > > > With indicators, more is not merrier. The best trading systems
> keep
> > > > it simple. As you add more and more indicators to a system, the
> law
> > > > of diminishing returns sets in and JO's law of paralysis takes
> > > over.
> > > > If you use more then 3 or 4 indicators, it gets progressively
> > > harder
> > > > to make decisions based on what you're seeing. Half the time you
> > > > won't even know what you're seeing, much less what to do about
> it.
> > > So
> > > > basically---KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!)
> > > >
> > > > After installation, ICE is fully integrated with the systems
> > > tester.
> > > > You pick a couple of indicators in a category, test the
> indicators
> > > on
> > > > your stocks to see which ones perform the best, and then
> optimize
> > > > them. The optimizations are also fully integrated, so you don't
> > > have
> > > > to do any programming at all.
> > > >
> > > > Once you have the optimized indicators, you set them up on chart
> > > with
> > > > a stock and play around a bit with the settings. This how I
> like to
> > > > customize. My eyeball tells me things that a mechanical
> > > optimization
> > > > program can't even deal with. Once that's complete, you move to
> the
> > > > next indicator in the next category.
> > > >
> > > > After awhile you will have three or four indicators, one from
> each
> > > > category, that fit you, your stocks and your system. They will
> > > have
> > > > little colinearity, they will have excellent probability of
> > > > generating good entry and exit points and you will be well on
> your
> > > > way to having a really good trading system.
> > > >
> > > > No, the program doesn't test chaos theory, Elliot cycles,
> fractals,
> > > > or hypocycloids of four cusps. This is a good thing because it
> has
> > > > been proven over and over, the best systems use the simple time
> > > > tested indicators--and that's it. Two moving averages and some
> > > common
> > > > sense will out perform the stuff I just mentioned. Okay, don't
> > > email
> > > > me about how good Elliot cycles are and how much you love them,
> > > etc,
> > > > etc. Elliot was stranger than Elvis, and Elvis didn't know
> anything
> > > > about trading stocks. That's all I need to know about Elliot and
> > > > Gann.
> > > >
> > > > This program won't help you write rap music, or find exotic
> > > patterns
> > > > in the futures markets, but it will save you tons of time and
> money
> > > > trying to come with a system that works.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a real life example-mine. I have written and developed
> two
> > > > really, really good systems. (No, I won't give them to you. No,
> I
> > > > won't sell them to you. Don't bother!) But like all Americans
> (and
> > > > the Chinese too), I'm never happy with what I have, so I wanted
> a
> > > > third one that did something that my first two didn't. My
> original
> > > > systems gave very accurate entry and exits signals but they
> didn't
> > > > tell when I should be piling more money into what looked like a
> > > good
> > > > trend. While it's not possible to tell how long a trend will
> last,
> > > it
> > > > is definitely possible to tell when a particular trend is
> stronger
> > > or
> > > > weaker. In other words, when should I risk more or risk less.
> > > >
> > > > I started working on the system a couple of weeks ago, and went
> > > about
> > > > solving the problem of when to increase my trade risk first.
> After
> > > > that was solved, the indicators that I added initially to the
> > > system
> > > > seemed to perform only so, so. After getting ICE, I read the
> manual
> > > > (which is still a work in progress, but since none of you seem
> to
> > > > read manuals anyway that shouldn't be a problem), sat down at
> the
> > > > computer and in less than two hours finished the system. I've
> set
> > > it
> > > > up, traded with it, and I'm pleased to say---I LOVE THIS
> SYSTEM, I
> > > > REALLY LOVE THIS SYSTEM. Next week I'm going to buy it a three
> > > stone
> > > > diamond ring, I love it so much. Now, if it could only tell me
> it
> > > > loved me back!
> > > >
> > > > If I had had this product a few years ago, it would have saved
> me
> > > > hundreds of hours in system development and testing time. That
> was
> > > > such grinding work, I had days when I thought I saw Elvis-sorry
> I
> > > > mean Gann.
> > > >
> > > > You know the only thing that could be better than this is if I
> > > could
> > > > tell you it was FREE, FREE, FREE! That is, after all, your
> favorite
> > > > word. Alias, it's not. BUT ALMOST.
> > > >
> > > > If you buy it before the official release date, it's only $99
> > > instead
> > > > of $299. Well, hold my hand, I can't believe it. It's true, and
> I
> > > > will tell you I would have paid many times that amount for all
> the
> > > > time and energy it would have saved me when I first started
> > > > developing my own systems.
> > > >
> > > > You can read about it at www.adpatick.com.
> > > >
> > > > I guess before I finish I need to confess. No I'm not John
> Slauson,
> > > > the guy who wrote ICE. Yeah, I know JO is really similar to JS-
> at
> > > > least to some of you Sherlock Holmes want-ta-be's. Given the
> > > millions
> > > > of possible name combinations JO and JS aren't even remotely
> > > > related.
> > > >
> > > > My confession is about cycles. I do rely on some cycle
> information.
> > > > You can find it at
> > > http://www.fourpillars.net/finance/predic.html.
> > > > This is the most accurate cycle information I've ever seen. If
> you
> > > > don't believe me, use it for awhile. You'll see. I've named my
> dog
> > > > Yang.
> > > >
> > > > JO
> > > >
> > > > PS Some of you know I recommend John Clayburg's book Four Steps
> to
> > > > Trading Success. John has developed a very sophisticated,
> > > effective,
> > > > yet easy to use set of indicators based on the RSI, Stoch and %
> R.
> > > It
> > > > would seem that these have too much colinearity to be effective.
> > > Doc
> > > > Clayburg has solved that problem through the use of time frames.
> > > Time
> > > > frame combinations can over come colinearity problems, but it's
> too
> > > > sophisticated for most system developers to deal with so I
> won't go
> > > > there, except to say Clayburg's system does not suffer from the
> > > > problems I have described above.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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>
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