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That's right, Bill. You may find out that some of the standard
indicators perform better than the ones you are using because their
performance is much improved after the optimization. In addition, you
can test a variety of indicators that handle volatility across the
stocks you like to trade and find out which ones perform the best on
those stocks. Then you can test your own and compare their
performance to best ones from ICE.
You can then combine yours with the ones ICE has suggested and see
how the system works. I don't use the absolute opt values from ICE. I
make adjustments after putting the indicator on a chart and comparing
it's performance against other indicators I use.
Basically, the new system I just completed only uses one indicator
gleaned from ICE. The other two indicators were proven indicators
I've used in my other systems, but I did tune one of them based on
ICE recommendations. Now the system is in balance and tells me
exactly what I want to know. I was able to find the third indicator
quickly and save myself a lot of testing time.
Many people have systems they like and don't realize that their
indicators are too correlated to be effective in combination. That
will eventually catch up with them.
In addition some indicators work better under specific market
conditions. Sometimes you have to change an indicator because the
operating environment is different. ICE makes that easier and lets
you check on the performance of your indicators from time to time in
an objective way.
ICE has several channel and band indicators available under
volatility. BB Bands, Trading Envelopes, Price Channels and
Projection Bands.
JO
--- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Bill Hebert"
<billhebert@xxxx> wrote:
> JO,
>
> Good points, basically what I get from your comments is I could
develop
> systems with ICE and then see if my own indicators and unique
settings
> can improve on it, or I could add my unique indicators/settings on
my own
> afterwards in standard Metastock System Tester.
>
> My current system does not use the standard indicators and/or the
common
> settings that Metastock has them set-up to work at. I do allot with
> volatility
> breakouts and coding with bands and channels that is rather
unique. I do
> like
> the StochRSI on the QQQ and CSCO but that is a trade frequency
thing for
> me. Some of my work is still in the development and testing stages
and I
> thought
> ICE would help speed up the process.
>
> If you mix ICE and Unique, you are saying that once you enter
anything
> unique
> you are back to the Metastock System Tester. Still an opportunity
for me to
> develop a system in ICE and see if my Volatility Breakout systems
over
> performs
> or underperforms.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to do such a complete analysis of the ICE
> package.
> Reports like this are a real value to us other Metastock users.
>
> -- Bill
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxx>
> To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:40 PM
> Subject: [Metastockusers] Questions---New Metastock Add-on Reviewed
>
>
> > Bill, you can't input your own indicators into ICE. You can test
your
> > indicators with the systems tester like always but you will have
to
> > do the programming yourself.
> >
> > The 74 indicators that ICE tests are the ones in Technical
Analysis A
> > to Z, and come as a subset of MS.
> >
> > Those indicators are the most commonly used ones. I've reviewed
and
> > tested somewhere over 500 indicators (the actual number is close
to
> > 700 but I've lost count somewhere in the blur) None of the ones
I've
> > tested are really any better than the ones that come with MS. It's
> > just that different people have different personal perferences.
> >
> > As far as the thresholds go, the indicators are first tested with
the
> > thersholds that are commonly used such as the RSI(14) with 70 30
> > thresholds. When the indicator is optimized on the group of stocks
> > you select, the period is optimized along with the thresholds. So
the
> > report gives you all the information that's needed--after
> > optimization you might get an RSI(22) thresholds 75 25 for
example.
> >
> > StochOSC and Stoch Momentum Index are the only Stochs included.
They
> > are the ones that come with MS to begin with.
> >
> > The bottom line is you can write your own code for whatever you
want
> > to test in the Systems Tester. ICE gives you the parameters it
uses
> > to run systems tests, so you can setup your tests on your custom
> > indicators the same way as ICE. ICE simply has consistent and
stable
> > tests and optimizations already programmed for the 74 indicators
that
> > are included.
> >
> > I know you'll probably disagree with this, but I've looked at
dozens
> > of SToch indicators, and none of them tell you anything that
can't be
> > read from simpler standard indicators. Almost everybody in TA,
> > especially the ones who write books, feels the need to come up
with
> > new versions of indicators so their stuff looks unique. It sells
the
> > books. But in reality, it's hardly unique. Out of every 500 or so
new
> > indicators that get programmed and written about, there's one that
> > makes something work better, but that's about it.
> >
> > Here's a link to e-analytics that explains it in detail. Their
> > article summarizes my experiences in looking at indicators.
> >
> > http://www.e-analytics.com/sysind.htm
> >
> > For me, this program was well worth the price. $99 is nothing in
the
> > world of TA.
> >
> > JO
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Bill Hebert"
> > <billhebert@xxxx> wrote:
> > > JO, Got a few questions?
> > >
> > > I like the concept of ICE but would like to hear from an
existing
> > user
> > > if it is also flexible enough for users to add their own
indicators
> > to the
> > > the program or change how the indicators are being used in the
> > program.
> > >
> > > Can the ICE program accept new indicators in the 4 different
groups
> > > that you state for managing colinearlity?
> > >
> > > For example: If there was no StochRSI in the Velocity indicator
> > section
> > >
> > > Could I add my own and have it work with the program?
> > >
> > > Or if there was a StochRSI, could I add my own version to the
> > program?
> > >
> > > Another question is on the usage of indicators
> > >
> > > Can the ICE program allow for unique indicator usage?
> > >
> > > For example: The RSI uses say 30 and 70 for trigger lines.
> > >
> > > Can I set to trigger when it goes above or set it to trigger
when
> > it falls
> > > back below that same level. Goes above 80 to trigger or drops
> > > down below 80 to trigger?
> > >
> > > Or say I want to use the RSI with a 50 trigger line crossover
> > instead
> > > of a dual 30/70 line overbought/oversould crossover indicator.
> > >
> > > I have reviewed that ICE program from the site but did not see
> > anything
> > > that would support answering my questions.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > -- Bill
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxx>
> > > To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 5:30 PM
> > > Subject: [Metastockusers] New Metastock Add-on Reviewed
> > >
> > >
> > > I just got an early release copy of a new MS add-on called ICE.
> > >
> > > Before reviewing the product, here's a disclaimer for all the
> > > conspiracy theory compulsives out there. I have no involvement
with
> > > either Equis or Adaptick, the company who produces the program.
I'm
> > > not married to the sister of someone who works for either one of
> > > them, and nobody there is my cousin. They don't send me birthday
> > > cards with money inside, and so far neither of company has even
> > > bought me a hot dog.
> > >
> > > The product's name is ICE, which tells you absolutely nothing
about
> > > the program. I will say this: I REALLY LIKE THIS ONE!
> > >
> > > I haven't said that often about any add-on but this time, I
really
> > > got my money's worth out of it.
> > >
> > > ICE is a specialized system tester program that takes 72
indicators
> > > and divides them into four relatively uncorrelated categories.
The
> > > indicators in each category can be tested on, and optimized for,
> > any
> > > group of stocks in any time frame.
> > >
> > > What this product does is save huge amounts of time and energy
when
> > > building and testing trading systems.
> > >
> > > All trading systems rely on some kind of indicators. However, if
> > you
> > > are going use two, three or four indicators, each indicator
should
> > be
> > > measuring something different. For example, if you like RSI and
> > > Stochastics, fine. Just don't put both of them in your system
> > because
> > > you are essentially measuring the same thing with both
indicators.
> > >
> > > Both are momentum indicators. RSI measures closing price
relative
> > to
> > > the previous close, and Stoch measures closing price relative to
> > the
> > > range. This might sound different, but they're too closely
> > correlated
> > > to be very effective when used together.
> > >
> > > In the ICE program both of these are considered velocity
> > indicators.
> > >
> > > The point of having different indicators is to increase the
> > > probability of a good trade by increasing the amount of NEW
> > > information provided by each indicator. If the indicators are
too
> > > similar-measuring essentially the same thing-the combination
only
> > > marginally increases the probability of making a better trade.
If
> > the
> > > indicators are sufficiently different, then the new information
> > makes
> > > a larger and more important contribution to the increase in
> > > probability of a good entry or exit point.
> > >
> > > However, that's not the end of the story. Even if you have
> > indicators
> > > that have very little colinearity (okay, take deep breathes-it
> > means
> > > they're measuring the same things-i.e. Points on a straight
line.)
> > > there is still the issue of how well any given indicator works
on a
> > > group of stocks.
> > >
> > > In a good trading system all the indicators give good signals on
> > the
> > > stocks being traded, and they are distinct enough to provide
sound
> > > entries and exits when used together.
> > >
> > > (I need to pause for a moment to make a small point outside of
ICE.
> > > With indicators, more is not merrier. The best trading systems
keep
> > > it simple. As you add more and more indicators to a system, the
law
> > > of diminishing returns sets in and JO's law of paralysis takes
> > over.
> > > If you use more then 3 or 4 indicators, it gets progressively
> > harder
> > > to make decisions based on what you're seeing. Half the time you
> > > won't even know what you're seeing, much less what to do about
it.
> > So
> > > basically---KEEP IT SIMPLE!!!!)
> > >
> > > After installation, ICE is fully integrated with the systems
> > tester.
> > > You pick a couple of indicators in a category, test the
indicators
> > on
> > > your stocks to see which ones perform the best, and then
optimize
> > > them. The optimizations are also fully integrated, so you don't
> > have
> > > to do any programming at all.
> > >
> > > Once you have the optimized indicators, you set them up on chart
> > with
> > > a stock and play around a bit with the settings. This how I
like to
> > > customize. My eyeball tells me things that a mechanical
> > optimization
> > > program can't even deal with. Once that's complete, you move to
the
> > > next indicator in the next category.
> > >
> > > After awhile you will have three or four indicators, one from
each
> > > category, that fit you, your stocks and your system. They will
> > have
> > > little colinearity, they will have excellent probability of
> > > generating good entry and exit points and you will be well on
your
> > > way to having a really good trading system.
> > >
> > > No, the program doesn't test chaos theory, Elliot cycles,
fractals,
> > > or hypocycloids of four cusps. This is a good thing because it
has
> > > been proven over and over, the best systems use the simple time
> > > tested indicators--and that's it. Two moving averages and some
> > common
> > > sense will out perform the stuff I just mentioned. Okay, don't
> > email
> > > me about how good Elliot cycles are and how much you love them,
> > etc,
> > > etc. Elliot was stranger than Elvis, and Elvis didn't know
anything
> > > about trading stocks. That's all I need to know about Elliot and
> > > Gann.
> > >
> > > This program won't help you write rap music, or find exotic
> > patterns
> > > in the futures markets, but it will save you tons of time and
money
> > > trying to come with a system that works.
> > >
> > > Here's a real life example-mine. I have written and developed
two
> > > really, really good systems. (No, I won't give them to you. No,
I
> > > won't sell them to you. Don't bother!) But like all Americans
(and
> > > the Chinese too), I'm never happy with what I have, so I wanted
a
> > > third one that did something that my first two didn't. My
original
> > > systems gave very accurate entry and exits signals but they
didn't
> > > tell when I should be piling more money into what looked like a
> > good
> > > trend. While it's not possible to tell how long a trend will
last,
> > it
> > > is definitely possible to tell when a particular trend is
stronger
> > or
> > > weaker. In other words, when should I risk more or risk less.
> > >
> > > I started working on the system a couple of weeks ago, and went
> > about
> > > solving the problem of when to increase my trade risk first.
After
> > > that was solved, the indicators that I added initially to the
> > system
> > > seemed to perform only so, so. After getting ICE, I read the
manual
> > > (which is still a work in progress, but since none of you seem
to
> > > read manuals anyway that shouldn't be a problem), sat down at
the
> > > computer and in less than two hours finished the system. I've
set
> > it
> > > up, traded with it, and I'm pleased to say---I LOVE THIS
SYSTEM, I
> > > REALLY LOVE THIS SYSTEM. Next week I'm going to buy it a three
> > stone
> > > diamond ring, I love it so much. Now, if it could only tell me
it
> > > loved me back!
> > >
> > > If I had had this product a few years ago, it would have saved
me
> > > hundreds of hours in system development and testing time. That
was
> > > such grinding work, I had days when I thought I saw Elvis-sorry
I
> > > mean Gann.
> > >
> > > You know the only thing that could be better than this is if I
> > could
> > > tell you it was FREE, FREE, FREE! That is, after all, your
favorite
> > > word. Alias, it's not. BUT ALMOST.
> > >
> > > If you buy it before the official release date, it's only $99
> > instead
> > > of $299. Well, hold my hand, I can't believe it. It's true, and
I
> > > will tell you I would have paid many times that amount for all
the
> > > time and energy it would have saved me when I first started
> > > developing my own systems.
> > >
> > > You can read about it at www.adpatick.com.
> > >
> > > I guess before I finish I need to confess. No I'm not John
Slauson,
> > > the guy who wrote ICE. Yeah, I know JO is really similar to JS-
at
> > > least to some of you Sherlock Holmes want-ta-be's. Given the
> > millions
> > > of possible name combinations JO and JS aren't even remotely
> > > related.
> > >
> > > My confession is about cycles. I do rely on some cycle
information.
> > > You can find it at
> > http://www.fourpillars.net/finance/predic.html.
> > > This is the most accurate cycle information I've ever seen. If
you
> > > don't believe me, use it for awhile. You'll see. I've named my
dog
> > > Yang.
> > >
> > > JO
> > >
> > > PS Some of you know I recommend John Clayburg's book Four Steps
to
> > > Trading Success. John has developed a very sophisticated,
> > effective,
> > > yet easy to use set of indicators based on the RSI, Stoch and %
R.
> > It
> > > would seem that these have too much colinearity to be effective.
> > Doc
> > > Clayburg has solved that problem through the use of time frames.
> > Time
> > > frame combinations can over come colinearity problems, but it's
too
> > > sophisticated for most system developers to deal with so I
won't go
> > > there, except to say Clayburg's system does not suffer from the
> > > problems I have described above.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
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