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Also, under context, I should have said that in the past you have
stood your ground on many issues and I have stood mine.... in
hindsight you were often correct and I didn't see it at the time
because of my inexperience.
Your 'teaching' style is minimalist and based on 'go do some more
practice'.
The fact is it works .... but you know in music that it all starts
from the repetitive practice of the tried and true core material
(scales, theory, exam pieces)... if they didn't exist in the first
place what is the use of sending the student off to practice ...
practice what?
brian_z
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx> wrote:
>
> Tomasz,
>
> Thanks for posting your point of view.
>
> I am tired of seeing you get slammed ... not to slam you but for
the
> sake of getting something concrete out of the discussion, a lot of
> which we have had many times over.
>
> Context:
>
> All of the ideas, discussion on resources etc is very nice... we
have
> done it all before .... resources and searching aren't the core
> issue ... you are the only one who can change anything that
> counts ... you don't show any signs that you are going to do
that...
> I think you are in denial..... there is enough content in the posts
> in this thead to show you should be taking on board some of the
hints.
>
> All of the talk means nothing... people either like to share or
they
> don't... if they like to they will find a way... you have given
many
> opportunities to do that BUT I don't expect anything from others...
> everything they offer is a bonus to me... even the paid
> mentors/consultants/authors are a bonus... if they weren't there I
> wouldn't have choices.
>
> I do expect something from you though... you are the owner of AB
and
> AFL... it is your duty to provide a current and useable manual...
it
> is your duty to teach the world about the programming language you
> created... I feel you have let me down in that regard and I am a
> little angry about it.... the constructive use for that anger is to
> participate in this discussion with you and others.... I have said
> this before.... I know you do read the forum to gain feedback so I
> assume you have already considered my point and rejected it.
>
> The lack of a 100% current manual and adequate AFL text is only
> compensated for by this forum... which only exists because of you,
> your contributions here and the bonus contribuitions of the many
who
> help out (God bless them)..... anything at all is a life saver...
> code or not code.
>
> The other side of the coin is... I haven't read everything.
> In fact, in order to take the burden off myself I have decided, I
> will never read everything, I will never learn all of AB and I will
> never keep a database, the way that others do.....so in the future
> people don't have to wonder if I did or if I didn't... now they
know
> for sure.
>
> I will read the manual again and again, I will read any AFL text
you
> write and I will practice.
>
> So, I will give up my day and go through the very good posts and
try
> to add some factual examples to support my arguments..... all in
the
> name of progress and community spirit.
>
> > You guys seem to go to the extreme with saying that AFL is
cryptic.
> > It is not.
>
> No, it is not cryptic.
> Very logical in fact.
>
> The help manual is sometimes cryptic and the AFL manual more so.
>
> > If somebody thinks that writing a "phrase book" is the solution
> >to "newbie" questions problem,
> > he/she is dreaming.
>
> I agree - this is not the answer ... treat the cause not the
symptoms.
> People need to learn AFL principles then make their own many
> applications.
>
>
> > No matter how good docs you will write you will ALWAYS have
newbie
> questions.
> >
> > There are dozens kinds of "newbies". From people who don't know
> where to
> > right click to bring context menu to people who just want to
write
> their first own DLL.
> > The scope is from "can I use for <CountryHere> market?" to
> > "Why my managed C# code throws exception here ..."
> >
> > The scope of user problems is simply to large to fit 50,000 pages
> >book.
> >
> > With growing number of docs, it is not easier to find exact info,
> but harder.
>
> That is correct ... all the resources have their good points but
they
> are not a magic solution... the magic solution doesn't exist... all
> that can be done is to start people off in the right way and
maintain
> the foundation (the help manual).
>
> > There is no substitute to learning things step-by-step by doing
> >them. It is called practice.
> >
>
> Yes practice is essential but so is theory and performance, in
equal
> amounts...... it is AFL theory that is lacking at present.
>
>
> brian_z
>
>
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > You guys seem to go to the extreme with saying that AFL is
cryptic.
> > It is not.
> > Take a look at Stocks&Commodities Traders' Tips and compare
> > AmiBroker codes with codes of any other product, and you will
> quickly find
> > out that AFL is almost everytime the shortest and easiest.
> >
> > Lots of examples here:
> > http://www.traders.com/Documentation/FEEDbk_docs/backissues.html
> >
> > If somebody thinks that writing a "phrase book" is the solution
> to "newbie" questions problem,
> > he/she is dreaming.
> >
> > No matter how good docs you will write you will ALWAYS have
newbie
> questions.
> >
> > There are dozens kinds of "newbies". From people who don't know
> where to
> > right click to bring context menu to people who just want to
write
> their first own DLL.
> > The scope is from "can I use for <CountryHere> market?" to
> > "Why my managed C# code throws exception here ..."
> >
> > The scope of user problems is simply to large to fit 50,000 pages
> book.
> >
> > With growing number of docs, it is not easier to find exact info,
> but harder.
> >
> > Classic example is Google. There is 100000 hits for each and
every
> search.
> > Unexperienced user who does not know exactly what he/she is
looking
> for will
> > be lost with the result list.
> >
> > In the past, when there was no so many code examples available,
> surprisingly there were less questions.
> >
> > > You and other posters are asking for an English to AFL phrase
> book.
> >
> > I was always saying - learn by doing. And there great, but often
> overlooked tool to learn by doing.
> > The tool is
> > AFL Code Wizard
> > (available from AmiBroker Analysis menu).
> > Using simple few clicks you can transform plain English sentence
to
> AFL code.
> > http://www.amibroker.com/video/AmiWiz.html
> >
> > There is no substitute to learning things step-by-step by doing
> them. It is called practice.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Tomasz Janeczko
> > amibroker.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dennis Brown
> > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
> oldies, ... and AmiBroker ...
> >
> >
> > Ron, and other posters to this thread,
> >
> >
> > This is a good example of where some of the problems in
> understanding come from. AFL is cryptic and concise. It takes a
> good long while to make the connection between a natural language
> expression of the desired result and the AFL to say the same
thing.
> I had ask for an AFL to English dictionary. You and other posters
> are asking for an English to AFL phrase book. I really like that
> idea. There are a large number of one liners that are very useful
> and are great at teaching how things work in AFL. How many times
> have I seen a question for "How do I plot a vertical line at x?"
> or "How do I change the background color by bar to indicate some
> indicator condition?". Almost the kind of thing that could make up
> an AFL FAQ section. This seems like one of the things the UKB was
> created to handle. However, each item is too small to warrant a
> whole UKB article in itself. The TOC structure is not set up for
> that IMO. However, having a dozen one liners about plotting, etc.,
> in one subject would be very helpful. Just the fact that a number
> of question would be answered under one general heading makes it
more
> likely that a new user would find the answer to the thing he wanted
> quickly.
> >
> >
> > I am hearing so many good ideas on this and similar threads in
> the last couple of days from new and old hands.
> >
> >
> > I am a great fan of "Cheat Sheets". Condensation of all key
> points to a subject on one page. There are many areas of AFL that
> could fit into this model.
> >
> >
> > Of course the problem with the UKB is that each article has to
> have an owner who is responsible to input and update its content.
> There are also some barriers to becoming a UKB author. Not big
ones,
> but just big enough to keep busy people from crossing over. One
> suggestion was made to have AB support help out with that so there
> would be an easy as email way to make a contribution for these
> snippets. Support already has offered to post articles for
authors,
> but I think it is still a barrier to have to write a "complete"
> article to post anything. Adding to an article that is already
> structured with a small think like people post hers would not be so
> daunting.
> >
> >
> > I think it is a great idea to have a topic related AFL phrase
> book. Of course it would also be appropriate for any UKB author to
> put up his hand and say he will sign up to maintain a particular
> topic UKB entry for the phrase book.
> >
> >
> > Perhaps if a few of us could take a topic and get the ball
> rolling, others would join in. The idea is that instead of writing
a
> UKB article, you just email a snippet to the responsible person to
> add it to the article.
> >
> >
> > This list itself could be used to vet things first to reduce
the
> editing of completed articles. That way someone would not have to
be
> an expert to maintain one topic.
> >
> >
> > If several people like this basic idea, the we could expand the
> concept and create an outline for the subjects.
> >
> >
> > Should we start organizing the topics for a phrase book?
> >
> >
> > It is one thing to complain, another to suggest improvements,
and
> still another to be willing to contribute to the suggestions.
> >
> >
> > What do people think of this idea, and contributing to it?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 28, 2008, at 3:13 PM, <professor@> <professor@>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > The examples that you used were perfect. Even I could
> understand how they worked and learn how to do things that I wanted
> to do but didn't know how to do it. I spent a lot of time using
> barssince and ref trying accomplish this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ronald Davis
> > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:36 AM
> > Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
> oldies, ... and AmiBroker ...
> >
> >
> > In the very early days of my Amibroker learning curve, The
> best help that I
> > received was from this board when an experienced user was
> kind enough to
> > quickly code an example or what I was asking.
> >
> > Then, I would play with what they had given me, and I
started
> to understand
> > how to use Amibroker.
> >
> > For example, REF(c>ref(c,2),5); says that the close that
> happened five days
> > ago has to be higher than the close that happened on the
> sixth day ago.
> >
> > Whereas, SUM(c>ref(c,2),5); only requires that any one or
> more of the
> > closes over the last five days has to be higher than the
> previous days
> > close.
> >
> > The above examples of simple english explanations from this
> board are how I
> > started learning Amibroker. Ron D
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Ken Close" <ken45140@>
> > To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:15 PM
> > Subject: RE: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
> oldies, ... and
> > AmiBroker ...
> >
> > > Amen. Amen! AMEN!
> > >
> > > While Tomasz has done so much to improve and expand the
> training/manual
> > > since the early days (he really has!), the fact there is
> continual
> > > questions
> > > on the same stuff or "small stuff", suggests there is
still
> room for and
> > > benefit from improvement.
> > >
> > > I am constantly reminded (or remind myself) that Tomasz
has
> to say "Read
> > > the
> > > Manual". Some questions are almost obvious that a quick
> trip to help
> > > would
> > > answer the question, but other "simple" questions are
not.
> Many of us do
> > > attempt to find the answers in help but cannot.
> > >
> > > For example, yesterday, I wanted to know how to make
> subscripted arrays.
> > > I
> > > did not remember that VarGet and VarSet was set up to do
> this. So a trip
> > > to
> > > Help and typing in "subscripted arrays" found 9 entries
> none of which led
> > > me
> > > to VarSet or VarGet. I think one of the improvements
would
> be a search
> > > system which allowed more complex search logic or
strings,
> or some way to
> > > zero in on the specific request. As Tomasz says, it is
> almost always in
> > > there, it just is hard to find.
> > >
> > > Ken
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > > Behalf
> > > Of Dennis Brown
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:58 AM
> > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help
newbies,
> oldies, ... and
> > > AmiBroker ...
> > >
> > > Brian,
> > >
> > > You are correct. I switched to AB because I wanted a
> programming language
> > > that was fundamentally tied into the realtime price
arrays
> and the
> > > charting
> > > for the same. RT quotes --> Database --> AFL -->
> > > Charts. That was all I wanted, and that is pretty much
all
> I use.
> > > There is a lot of overhead associated with getting and
> maintaining the
> > > data,
> > > interacting with the user, and outputting the the data in
a
> useful form.
> > > I
> > > only wanted to be concerned with the algorithms that
> decided to buy or
> > > sell.
> > > Interestingly, even with all the support functions
handled
> by AB, I still
> > > spend 80% of my time coding UI things! I think it is some
> kind of
> > > computer
> > > programming law.
> > >
> > > AFL was my real destination with AmiBroker, and I had a
> hard time because
> > > it
> > > was not well defined. A lot of assumptions were made
about
> prior
> > > knowledge
> > > of specific programming language conventions in C like
> languages.
> > > Languages
> > > I had no experience with. These are middle level
languages.
> My
> > > experience
> > > was with machine level assembler code, and very high
level
> like
> > > Revolution/SuperCard/HyperCard, and a
> > > smattering of BASIC and APL from the original versions 40
> years ago.
> > > I had no idea that I was supposed to go learn C syntax
> before I could use
> > > the AFL documentation. IMHO this is a documentation hole
> big enough to
> > > drive a truck through.
> > >
> > > Then what happens when someone has no experience with any
> programming
> > > language at all. Perhaps some Excel experience, or maybe
> experience using
> > > a
> > > programmable calculator. I can't imagine the bewilderment
> with AFL. It
> > > takes a lot of handholding from support or this list to
get
> over the first
> > > hump.
> > >
> > > I believe it would be appropriate to define the AFL
> language in the
> > > documentation as if it were the only language that exists
> on the planet.
> > >
> > > For instance "+" is defined as "Addition". Whereas, in
> reality the "+"
> > > operator is data type dependent. It will add two numbers,
> add a number to
> > > every element in an array, add two arrays element by
> element, or
> > > concatenate
> > > two strings. It will not add a number or array to a
string.
> > >
> > > As I have suggested before, I would have liked to see
> a "Complete"
> > > listing of all operators, functions, reserved words,
syntax
> characters,
> > > directives, etc., in one live list index that points to a
> page that
> > > explains
> > > each one in the same way that the functions are now
> described. Then
> > > additional "see also" pointers on those pages to point to
> more in depth
> > > documents when available. In fact the current functions
> list could simply
> > > be expanded to do this.
> > >
> > > This would have saved me many weeks off the learning
curve.
> > >
> > > I don't know if Howard is planning on doing this in his
new
> book, but it
> > > should be part of the on-line documentation.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Dennis
> > >
> > >
> > > On Aug 28, 2008, at 10:34 AM, brian_z111 wrote:
> > >
> > >> I didn't explain myself very well there.
> > >>
> > >> What I am saying is that I think we are making it harder
> by not
> > >> admitting that it is a programmers program and just
> getting on with
> > >> teaching AFL.
> > >>
> > >> If anyone held told me that at the start I would have
run
> for it but
> > >> the fact is that the help manual is about 'AmiBroker the
> program' but
> > >> eventually I came to realise it is all about
programming -
> > >> specifically AFL.
> > >>
> > >> So, if I do want to get on with it where do I go?
> > >>
> > >> The AFL section of the help manual is condensed.
> > >> The first few chapters of Howards Book are a basic intro
> to AB and the
> > >> rest of the book is orientated around SystemDesign &
> Evaluation?
> > >>
> > >> Where is the next stop on the AFL line?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> brian_z
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111"
> <brian_z111@> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Herman,
> > >>>
> > >>>> I always figured that sticking with AFL would have
> provided a more
> > >>>> continuous path for users to develop their programming
> expertise.
> > >>>
> > >>> This is a new point, not really discussed much before,
I
> think.
> > >>>
> > >>> I really don't know how to put it in words but you are
so
> right.
> > >>>
> > >>> Tomasz should be proud of me because if I am a
programmer
> at all I
> > >> am
> > >>> an array programmer...... but sometimes I am left
> reaching for AFL?
> > >>>
> > >>> Perhaps there are conventions that people with 2 or more
> > >> programming
> > >>> languages automatically understand?
> > >>>
> > >>> Do I have to go and learn C++ as well.
> > >>>
> > >>> Should I need too?
> > >>>
> > >>> brian_z
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------
> > >>
> > >> Please note that this group is for discussion between
> users only.
> > >>
> > >> To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
> directly to
> > >> SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > >>
> > >> For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always
check
> DEVLOG:
> > >> http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > >>
> > >> For other support material please check also:
> > >> http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please note that this group is for discussion between
users
> only.
> > >
> > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
> directly to SUPPORT
> > > {at}
> > > amibroker.com
> > >
> > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
> DEVLOG:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > >
> > > For other support material please check also:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please note that this group is for discussion between
users
> only.
> > >
> > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
> directly to
> > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > >
> > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
> DEVLOG:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > >
> > > For other support material please check also:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
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SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
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