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Tomasz,
Thanks for posting your point of view.
I am tired of seeing you get slammed ... not to slam you but for the
sake of getting something concrete out of the discussion, a lot of
which we have had many times over.
Context:
All of the ideas, discussion on resources etc is very nice... we have
done it all before .... resources and searching aren't the core
issue ... you are the only one who can change anything that
counts ... you don't show any signs that you are going to do that...
I think you are in denial..... there is enough content in the posts
in this thead to show you should be taking on board some of the hints.
All of the talk means nothing... people either like to share or they
don't... if they like to they will find a way... you have given many
opportunities to do that BUT I don't expect anything from others...
everything they offer is a bonus to me... even the paid
mentors/consultants/authors are a bonus... if they weren't there I
wouldn't have choices.
I do expect something from you though... you are the owner of AB and
AFL... it is your duty to provide a current and useable manual... it
is your duty to teach the world about the programming language you
created... I feel you have let me down in that regard and I am a
little angry about it.... the constructive use for that anger is to
participate in this discussion with you and others.... I have said
this before.... I know you do read the forum to gain feedback so I
assume you have already considered my point and rejected it.
The lack of a 100% current manual and adequate AFL text is only
compensated for by this forum... which only exists because of you,
your contributions here and the bonus contribuitions of the many who
help out (God bless them)..... anything at all is a life saver...
code or not code.
The other side of the coin is... I haven't read everything.
In fact, in order to take the burden off myself I have decided, I
will never read everything, I will never learn all of AB and I will
never keep a database, the way that others do.....so in the future
people don't have to wonder if I did or if I didn't... now they know
for sure.
I will read the manual again and again, I will read any AFL text you
write and I will practice.
So, I will give up my day and go through the very good posts and try
to add some factual examples to support my arguments..... all in the
name of progress and community spirit.
> You guys seem to go to the extreme with saying that AFL is cryptic.
> It is not.
No, it is not cryptic.
Very logical in fact.
The help manual is sometimes cryptic and the AFL manual more so.
> If somebody thinks that writing a "phrase book" is the solution
>to "newbie" questions problem,
> he/she is dreaming.
I agree - this is not the answer ... treat the cause not the symptoms.
People need to learn AFL principles then make their own many
applications.
> No matter how good docs you will write you will ALWAYS have newbie
questions.
>
> There are dozens kinds of "newbies". From people who don't know
where to
> right click to bring context menu to people who just want to write
their first own DLL.
> The scope is from "can I use for <CountryHere> market?" to
> "Why my managed C# code throws exception here ..."
>
> The scope of user problems is simply to large to fit 50,000 pages
>book.
>
> With growing number of docs, it is not easier to find exact info,
but harder.
That is correct ... all the resources have their good points but they
are not a magic solution... the magic solution doesn't exist... all
that can be done is to start people off in the right way and maintain
the foundation (the help manual).
> There is no substitute to learning things step-by-step by doing
>them. It is called practice.
>
Yes practice is essential but so is theory and performance, in equal
amounts...... it is AFL theory that is lacking at present.
brian_z
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@xxx>
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> You guys seem to go to the extreme with saying that AFL is cryptic.
> It is not.
> Take a look at Stocks&Commodities Traders' Tips and compare
> AmiBroker codes with codes of any other product, and you will
quickly find
> out that AFL is almost everytime the shortest and easiest.
>
> Lots of examples here:
> http://www.traders.com/Documentation/FEEDbk_docs/backissues.html
>
> If somebody thinks that writing a "phrase book" is the solution
to "newbie" questions problem,
> he/she is dreaming.
>
> No matter how good docs you will write you will ALWAYS have newbie
questions.
>
> There are dozens kinds of "newbies". From people who don't know
where to
> right click to bring context menu to people who just want to write
their first own DLL.
> The scope is from "can I use for <CountryHere> market?" to
> "Why my managed C# code throws exception here ..."
>
> The scope of user problems is simply to large to fit 50,000 pages
book.
>
> With growing number of docs, it is not easier to find exact info,
but harder.
>
> Classic example is Google. There is 100000 hits for each and every
search.
> Unexperienced user who does not know exactly what he/she is looking
for will
> be lost with the result list.
>
> In the past, when there was no so many code examples available,
surprisingly there were less questions.
>
> > You and other posters are asking for an English to AFL phrase
book.
>
> I was always saying - learn by doing. And there great, but often
overlooked tool to learn by doing.
> The tool is
> AFL Code Wizard
> (available from AmiBroker Analysis menu).
> Using simple few clicks you can transform plain English sentence to
AFL code.
> http://www.amibroker.com/video/AmiWiz.html
>
> There is no substitute to learning things step-by-step by doing
them. It is called practice.
>
> Best regards,
> Tomasz Janeczko
> amibroker.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dennis Brown
> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
oldies, ... and AmiBroker ...
>
>
> Ron, and other posters to this thread,
>
>
> This is a good example of where some of the problems in
understanding come from. AFL is cryptic and concise. It takes a
good long while to make the connection between a natural language
expression of the desired result and the AFL to say the same thing.
I had ask for an AFL to English dictionary. You and other posters
are asking for an English to AFL phrase book. I really like that
idea. There are a large number of one liners that are very useful
and are great at teaching how things work in AFL. How many times
have I seen a question for "How do I plot a vertical line at x?"
or "How do I change the background color by bar to indicate some
indicator condition?". Almost the kind of thing that could make up
an AFL FAQ section. This seems like one of the things the UKB was
created to handle. However, each item is too small to warrant a
whole UKB article in itself. The TOC structure is not set up for
that IMO. However, having a dozen one liners about plotting, etc.,
in one subject would be very helpful. Just the fact that a number
of question would be answered under one general heading makes it more
likely that a new user would find the answer to the thing he wanted
quickly.
>
>
> I am hearing so many good ideas on this and similar threads in
the last couple of days from new and old hands.
>
>
> I am a great fan of "Cheat Sheets". Condensation of all key
points to a subject on one page. There are many areas of AFL that
could fit into this model.
>
>
> Of course the problem with the UKB is that each article has to
have an owner who is responsible to input and update its content.
There are also some barriers to becoming a UKB author. Not big ones,
but just big enough to keep busy people from crossing over. One
suggestion was made to have AB support help out with that so there
would be an easy as email way to make a contribution for these
snippets. Support already has offered to post articles for authors,
but I think it is still a barrier to have to write a "complete"
article to post anything. Adding to an article that is already
structured with a small think like people post hers would not be so
daunting.
>
>
> I think it is a great idea to have a topic related AFL phrase
book. Of course it would also be appropriate for any UKB author to
put up his hand and say he will sign up to maintain a particular
topic UKB entry for the phrase book.
>
>
> Perhaps if a few of us could take a topic and get the ball
rolling, others would join in. The idea is that instead of writing a
UKB article, you just email a snippet to the responsible person to
add it to the article.
>
>
> This list itself could be used to vet things first to reduce the
editing of completed articles. That way someone would not have to be
an expert to maintain one topic.
>
>
> If several people like this basic idea, the we could expand the
concept and create an outline for the subjects.
>
>
> Should we start organizing the topics for a phrase book?
>
>
> It is one thing to complain, another to suggest improvements, and
still another to be willing to contribute to the suggestions.
>
>
> What do people think of this idea, and contributing to it?
>
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 28, 2008, at 3:13 PM, <professor@xxx> <professor@xxx>
wrote:
>
>
> Ron,
>
> The examples that you used were perfect. Even I could
understand how they worked and learn how to do things that I wanted
to do but didn't know how to do it. I spent a lot of time using
barssince and ref trying accomplish this.
>
> Thanks,
> Tom
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ronald Davis
> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
oldies, ... and AmiBroker ...
>
>
> In the very early days of my Amibroker learning curve, The
best help that I
> received was from this board when an experienced user was
kind enough to
> quickly code an example or what I was asking.
>
> Then, I would play with what they had given me, and I started
to understand
> how to use Amibroker.
>
> For example, REF(c>ref(c,2),5); says that the close that
happened five days
> ago has to be higher than the close that happened on the
sixth day ago.
>
> Whereas, SUM(c>ref(c,2),5); only requires that any one or
more of the
> closes over the last five days has to be higher than the
previous days
> close.
>
> The above examples of simple english explanations from this
board are how I
> started learning Amibroker. Ron D
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Close" <ken45140@xxx>
> To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:15 PM
> Subject: RE: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
oldies, ... and
> AmiBroker ...
>
> > Amen. Amen! AMEN!
> >
> > While Tomasz has done so much to improve and expand the
training/manual
> > since the early days (he really has!), the fact there is
continual
> > questions
> > on the same stuff or "small stuff", suggests there is still
room for and
> > benefit from improvement.
> >
> > I am constantly reminded (or remind myself) that Tomasz has
to say "Read
> > the
> > Manual". Some questions are almost obvious that a quick
trip to help
> > would
> > answer the question, but other "simple" questions are not.
Many of us do
> > attempt to find the answers in help but cannot.
> >
> > For example, yesterday, I wanted to know how to make
subscripted arrays.
> > I
> > did not remember that VarGet and VarSet was set up to do
this. So a trip
> > to
> > Help and typing in "subscripted arrays" found 9 entries
none of which led
> > me
> > to VarSet or VarGet. I think one of the improvements would
be a search
> > system which allowed more complex search logic or strings,
or some way to
> > zero in on the specific request. As Tomasz says, it is
almost always in
> > there, it just is hard to find.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > Behalf
> > Of Dennis Brown
> > Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:58 AM
> > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: The best way to help newbies,
oldies, ... and
> > AmiBroker ...
> >
> > Brian,
> >
> > You are correct. I switched to AB because I wanted a
programming language
> > that was fundamentally tied into the realtime price arrays
and the
> > charting
> > for the same. RT quotes --> Database --> AFL -->
> > Charts. That was all I wanted, and that is pretty much all
I use.
> > There is a lot of overhead associated with getting and
maintaining the
> > data,
> > interacting with the user, and outputting the the data in a
useful form.
> > I
> > only wanted to be concerned with the algorithms that
decided to buy or
> > sell.
> > Interestingly, even with all the support functions handled
by AB, I still
> > spend 80% of my time coding UI things! I think it is some
kind of
> > computer
> > programming law.
> >
> > AFL was my real destination with AmiBroker, and I had a
hard time because
> > it
> > was not well defined. A lot of assumptions were made about
prior
> > knowledge
> > of specific programming language conventions in C like
languages.
> > Languages
> > I had no experience with. These are middle level languages.
My
> > experience
> > was with machine level assembler code, and very high level
like
> > Revolution/SuperCard/HyperCard, and a
> > smattering of BASIC and APL from the original versions 40
years ago.
> > I had no idea that I was supposed to go learn C syntax
before I could use
> > the AFL documentation. IMHO this is a documentation hole
big enough to
> > drive a truck through.
> >
> > Then what happens when someone has no experience with any
programming
> > language at all. Perhaps some Excel experience, or maybe
experience using
> > a
> > programmable calculator. I can't imagine the bewilderment
with AFL. It
> > takes a lot of handholding from support or this list to get
over the first
> > hump.
> >
> > I believe it would be appropriate to define the AFL
language in the
> > documentation as if it were the only language that exists
on the planet.
> >
> > For instance "+" is defined as "Addition". Whereas, in
reality the "+"
> > operator is data type dependent. It will add two numbers,
add a number to
> > every element in an array, add two arrays element by
element, or
> > concatenate
> > two strings. It will not add a number or array to a string.
> >
> > As I have suggested before, I would have liked to see
a "Complete"
> > listing of all operators, functions, reserved words, syntax
characters,
> > directives, etc., in one live list index that points to a
page that
> > explains
> > each one in the same way that the functions are now
described. Then
> > additional "see also" pointers on those pages to point to
more in depth
> > documents when available. In fact the current functions
list could simply
> > be expanded to do this.
> >
> > This would have saved me many weeks off the learning curve.
> >
> > I don't know if Howard is planning on doing this in his new
book, but it
> > should be part of the on-line documentation.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Dennis
> >
> >
> > On Aug 28, 2008, at 10:34 AM, brian_z111 wrote:
> >
> >> I didn't explain myself very well there.
> >>
> >> What I am saying is that I think we are making it harder
by not
> >> admitting that it is a programmers program and just
getting on with
> >> teaching AFL.
> >>
> >> If anyone held told me that at the start I would have run
for it but
> >> the fact is that the help manual is about 'AmiBroker the
program' but
> >> eventually I came to realise it is all about programming -
> >> specifically AFL.
> >>
> >> So, if I do want to get on with it where do I go?
> >>
> >> The AFL section of the help manual is condensed.
> >> The first few chapters of Howards Book are a basic intro
to AB and the
> >> rest of the book is orientated around SystemDesign &
Evaluation?
> >>
> >> Where is the next stop on the AFL line?
> >>
> >>
> >> brian_z
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111"
<brian_z111@> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Herman,
> >>>
> >>>> I always figured that sticking with AFL would have
provided a more
> >>>> continuous path for users to develop their programming
expertise.
> >>>
> >>> This is a new point, not really discussed much before, I
think.
> >>>
> >>> I really don't know how to put it in words but you are so
right.
> >>>
> >>> Tomasz should be proud of me because if I am a programmer
at all I
> >> am
> >>> an array programmer...... but sometimes I am left
reaching for AFL?
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps there are conventions that people with 2 or more
> >> programming
> >>> languages automatically understand?
> >>>
> >>> Do I have to go and learn C++ as well.
> >>>
> >>> Should I need too?
> >>>
> >>> brian_z
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Please note that this group is for discussion between
users only.
> >>
> >> To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
directly to
> >> SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> >>
> >> For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
DEVLOG:
> >> http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >>
> >> For other support material please check also:
> >> http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please note that this group is for discussion between users
only.
> >
> > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
directly to SUPPORT
> > {at}
> > amibroker.com
> >
> > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
DEVLOG:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >
> > For other support material please check also:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please note that this group is for discussion between users
only.
> >
> > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
directly to
> > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> >
> > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
DEVLOG:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >
> > For other support material please check also:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
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