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Hello Alan,
Good to see you are still around.
> The two
> styles are not so disimilar that a system trader has the benefit of
> full backtesting/optimisation/WFA while the discretionary trader
> should be left to perform his analysis with a pencil,paper and
> abacus..............
> ............I think there is a fine line between rule based trading
>vs
> discretionary.Granted the approachs are different,but once a trade
>is
> on,one still has to manage it with the very best tools
> available.
You are 100% correct in your statements..... there is practically no
line at all between the to.
You are quite right in shifting the focus to the difference between
the analyses ...... in hindsight I didn't emphasis that point enough.
As I said before, it is all a bit of a storm in a teacup because
anyone can do anything they care to ...... at the end of the day
programmed rules traders don't have 100% certainty and have to
walkforward to test the predictive value of their system ......
exactly the same outcome as 'Discretionary Traders' who also have to
walk forward to test the predictive value of their system ... if they
are XFactor traders, or use indefinite rules, then they can only do
that live.
(I think XFactor traders and 'seat of the pants' traders need live
simulations to perform realistic tests .... I doubt if bar by bar
replays, of historical data, would realistically simulate the
'atmospherics' of the way they trade).
The only caveat I placed on traders was that an indefinite rule
should lead to a definite rule ...... technically speaking there is
no requirement for this either, since the W/F predictive test is the
only one that counts ..... if traders are getting good outcomes, how
they get there is their own business....I only added the above
stipulation because IMO it would be very hard to adjust a system,
based on feedback, if the precedents are indefinite and can't be
traced...... better off, if at all possible... to head towards
defined rules.... but not absolutely required.
Once again I agree with you ... the analysis of the walkforward is
the only thing that really counts ... short of actual trading.
brian_z
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@xxx> wrote:
>
> Hi T,
> As a discretionary trader,I find the charting package in Ami to
be
> excellent.The only gripe I have is that one can not shift to higher
> time frames(daily to weekly) without the chart and trendlines
jumping
> all over the place,i.e.,from one date to the next.Without having
the
> end dates locked(far right dates),multiple time frame analysis
> becomes a very difficult task,and analysis is rendered useless.Its
> essential that the far right side of the chart have the same date
on
> any time frame.I discussed it in the past,but you had your own
> views.Sadly,I had to go to another program.
>
> On another note,and far more important, a discretionary trader
needs
> the same risk management tools that a system trader does.The two
> styles are not so disimilar that a system trader has the benefit of
> full backtesting/optimisation/WFA while the discretionary trader
> should be left to perform his analysis with a pencil,paper and
> abacus.Ami should offer the capability to SIMULATE discretionary
> trading.That means the ability to point and click on the chart and
> record all Entrys(long and short),Exits,and stops with
> pyramiding/scaling capabilities.In addition full reporting should
be
> available with a scaled down version of backtest results as well as
> the capability to export the trades should one wish to do perform
> further analysis,i.e position sizing,Money management.
>
> Unless one is performing algorithmic trading/mean reversion
> strategies,I think there is a fine line between rule based trading
vs
> discretionary.Granted the approachs are different,but once a trade
is
> on,one still has to manage it with the very best tools
> available.Hopefully,Ami can level the playing field between the
> system "tools" vs the "discretionary" tools avaiable.
>
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I appreciate all suggestions and there is really no problem
> > in adding new features provided that there is demand for them.
> > I specifically asked for charting suggestions, as this is way
> > more "subjective" thing than backtesting and other rule-based
tools.
> > Discretionary traders seem to be very sensitive to all those
> > little details and aesthetics. These are are sometimes easy to
> develop
> > sometimes not, but unless you hear the feedback it is not possible
> > to know what every single person uses.
> > So again, feedback is appreciated. If possible and not too time
> consuming
> > for you, I greatly appreciate filling the issue via feedback
> center. If not,
> > I can keep track on my internal list.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Tomasz Janeczko
> > amibroker.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> > To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:30 PM
> > Subject: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary'
> trading...
> >
> >
> > > How97,
> > >
> > > I agree. You've stated nothing that I haven't already.
> > >
> > > I do use other software... MarketDelta & have been looking at
> Ninja
> > > with a market profile plug in as an alternative.
> > >
> > > Like others, I'm not desperately keen on using multiple software
> > > systems. I'd rather try and get it under one roof. And the
truth
> is it
> > > really wouldn't be hard for TJ to add some of that
functionality.
> > >
> > > I'm adding my voice to a largely dominant rule based crowd... I
> hope
> > > you're ok with free expression of wishes and ideas...??
> > >
> > > I think others have also made it clear on this thread that
they'd
> like
> > > to see some more functionality on the charting side too.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "how97" <101.158294@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I believe it is clear that the large majority of the AB users
> want
> > >> to have the possibility for rule-based trading, backtesting,
> > >> automatic analysis, automatic trading etc. For that group
> Amibroker
> > >> is just excellent and it is constantly enhanced in these
> > >> possibilities. And that is what the large majority of its
users
> > >> wants. And AB strongly supported by its users and driven by
> their
> > >> wishes.
> > >>
> > >> The large majority of users is clearly not the discretionary
> > >> traders. These may need better or specialized charting. That
may
> > >> well be. If this better charting software exists already as
you
> are
> > >> saying, why are you not using it, why did you come here to AB?
> What
> > >> were you looking for?
> > >>
> > >> I think it is also a clear preference of Tomasz to develop AB
> into a
> > >> direction where most of its users wants to ahve it. And that
is
> > >> good. A lot of the stuff in AB is much too complex if you are
> just
> > >> looking for other kinds of charting. So why bother? You need
to
> use
> > >> a different software.
> > >>
> > >> By the way: In my opinion AB allows excellent charting.
> > >>
> > >> Regards
> > >> how97
> > >>
> > >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > From my perspective, and this is really why I connected
> charting to
> > >> > the ideas of 'rule based' vs 'discretionary' trading... if
you
> are
> > >> a
> > >> > discretionary trader, from a software perspective it is ALL
> about
> > >> > visibility. If the software you are using doesn't or can't
> give you
> > >> > the best visibility available then you are at a
disadvanatge.
> You
> > >> > can't make sensible discretionary trading decisions without
> being
> > >> able
> > >> > to see how current market structure has evolved, what market
> > >> dynamics
> > >> > are at play, how the auction process is evolving at
different
> time
> > >> > frames etc..etc.. You simply don't get that from bar &
candle
> > >> charts.
> > >> >
> > >> > Hence my obsession with Market Profile & Equivolume and
> generally
> > >> more
> > >> > accessability and adaptability to AmiBroker's charting
> facilicites.
> > >> >
> > >> > Currently it's a fabulous piece of software, particualrly
> for 'rule
> > >> > based' traders.... But probably a less fabulous piece of
> software
> > >> for
> > >> > discretionary day traders for example. But of course, I
> appreciate,
> > >> > it's hard to be all things to all men...
> > >> >
> > >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Close <ken45140@>
wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > One simple suggestion for charting improvement:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Put in the ability to insert a "Tab" character in a Title
> > >> statement
> > >> > in order
> > >> > > to make it easier to produce multi-line tables
> with "columns"
> > >> left
> > >> > justified
> > >> > > no matter how many decimal places in previous values in
the
> same
> > >> row. I
> > >> > > have done it via complex IIF statements but how nice it
> would be
> > >> to
> > >> > insert
> > >> > > the code for a tab character to create columns. No, I do
> not
> > >> want to do
> > >> > > this with the gfx commands (too complex for this
> application).
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Ken
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > >> > On Behalf
> > >> > > Of Tomasz Janeczko
> > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
> > >> > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> > > Subject: Re: [amibroker] 'Rule Based'
versus 'Discretionary'
> > >> trading...
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Hello,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Not wanting to hijack this thread but whenever I ask about
> some
> > >> itemized
> > >> > > list of what is exactly "weak" in AB charting, I don't
> receive
> > >> any
> > >> > > meaningful reply. I would really want to know some
objective
> list
> > >> > instead of
> > >> > > statements I heard on ET that "charts are ugly" which for
me
> > >> > unfortunatelly
> > >> > > means nothing, considering the hunderds of ways charts can
> be
> > >> customized
> > >> > > according to user taste in AB.
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please note that this group is for discussion between users
only.
> > >
> > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to
> > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > >
> > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
DEVLOG:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > >
> > > For other support material please check also:
> > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
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