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Wow, if I ever had to worry about all that spirituality, psychology, philosophy, Indian spiritual philosophy,
God, yoga, meditation, prayer, singing/chanting, dancing, spiritual practices,
temporary intimacy with the Gods, psyhic powers, Western spirituality, and spiritual teachings,
I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a trade. Am I alone on this or is this the way everybody trades in the new millennium ?
Dave
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx> wrote:
> FTR
> I don't know how people can tranlate this into applied Trading
> Psychology but to set the record straight.
>
> Re the relevance of spirituality/personal development to trading:
>
> Using Indian spiritual philosophy as the example.
>
> There is no single philosophy but rather a myriad of inter-related
> and sometimes conflicting ones.
> However, as a generalisation, the ideals of Indian spirituality are
> passive (to a Westerner) and can be summarised as:
>
> - Man is a small replica of God (potentially)
> - the goal is to sublimate the mind of Man to the mind of God (Yoga
> is the union of Man-God)
> - various practices are used to faclitate this (meditation, prayer,
> singing/chanting, dancing etc)
> - permanancy of the union is a long and difficult goal, seldom
> achieved
> - temporary intimacy with the Gods, achieved via spiritual practices,
> TRANSFORMS the practitioner and hence their culture
> - psyhic powers (Siddhi) are a byproduct and considered a distraction
> and/or dangerous
> - worldly success is considered somewhat of lesser value than
> spiritual success
>
> "From the Unreal lead me to the Real".
>
> Once again these are gross simplifications which have been vigorously
> debated for thousands of years.
>
> Western spirituality is active.
> We seek to "petition the Lord" to intervene in our lifes/culture and
> to give us the Power(s), ostensibly to do his work.
>
> In both cases the spiritual path is the same, except that the
> emphasis is different, however all variations on the theme are
> operative in both cultures, via their sub-cultures.
>
>
> Applying this to trading:
>
> Will adopting spiritual practices, say meditation, or prayer, make me
> a better trader?
>
> Is there any correspondence between the transcendental consciousness
> of meditation/prayer and the mindset that successful traders have
> (assuming there is such a thing as a common identifiable traders
> mindset)?
>
> Possibly.
>
> In my own experience, if I had any advantages in this area when I
> started out trading i.e. I did "know myself" before I started
> trading, I still had to get to know the markets, TA, my broker, data
> provider and software etc as well.
>
>
> Re 'Positive Thinking' and 'The Power of The Mind'
>
> This has been borrowed from spiritual teachings (power of Prayer etc).
>
> This is an application of a limited part of spirituality, and without
> the attendant ethics etc it can bring about Worldly Success but that
> doesn't neccessarily equate to Life Success i.e. it is a partial
> spiritual practice without the full experience or spiritual knowledge.
>
>
> Is there a mindset that successful traders have (as claimed by Mark
> Douglas "In The Trading Zone")?
>
> Possibly, or Mark could have just found a good way to make some money
> OR be projecting his personal needs/worldview onto the trading world.
>
> As a hypothesis (a lot of traders say that trading changed the way
> they think i.e trading changed THEM).
>
> In my experience we tend to:
>
> - spend more and more time alone in the trading room
> - spend less and less time 'socialising'
> - spend long hours focused on single issues
> - our trading rooms are sensory deprived environments
> - undertake intensive problem solving/creative tasks
> - are confronted by our extreme emotional states etc
>
> It is possible that intense traders could eperience trading as
> personally transformative under those conditions and that they do
> experience, or even cultivate, altered consciousness (to some extent)
> while actively engaged in trading.
>
> Based on the above is there anything we can do to facilitate trading
> success?
>
> Sticking my neck out I predict super succesful traders would have
> some of the following habits/qualities:
>
> - they use positive thinking, either consciously or otherwise (they
> almost certainly set goals)
> - they have self-confidence or self-esteem (if they don't have it
> when they start out they acquire it)
> - they are psychologically mature & comfortable in their skins
> (through other life experiences - not necessarily only acquired
> through academic success)
> - at some time in their life they have read or thought about the
> psychology of life/trading but it is not really a prominent part of
> their daily thinking (they tend to do it rather than think about it)
> - they are not very concerned with defining their style or over
> defining their trading
> - they have rituals (the way the office is setup, the time of the day
> they do certain things) and they do things in order (download data,
> scan, add to watchlist etc )
> - they have one trade that they do over and over (probably they have
> some spare trades up their sleeve)
> - they have practised their one trade over and over (like a golf
> swing == 10000 repetitions)
> - they will be biased to simplicity and only add complexity where
> they are forced to
> - if they have more than one trade they will use it in a different
> time and place (unless it is part of a portfolio approach)
> - they don't consider their trade perfect i.e. others might have
> something better but it works for them and they are satisfied with it
> - their trade is very personal (like a favourite son or daughter)
> - possibly they don't like to talk about trading, even the extroverts
> probably become trading introverts (the trading ego is like an alter
> ego that they put on and take off as they enter and leave the trading
> room)
> - they don't like interruptions while trading
> - trading talk is noise to them
> - they are not as interested in buying things as they used to be
> except stuff for their trading environment (new computers, software
> etc)
>
> Anybody recognise themselves in there anywhere?
>
> On a slightly different note:
>
> It is rather funny logic that we would think that all of the traders
> who are 'in the zone' are discretionary traders and that all of the
> other traders don't have the right stuff OR that there is only
> discretionary trading versus mechanical trading.
>
> Anyway, any trader who is consistently successful has the right
> mindset even if they/we can't define it.
>
> BTW I am not an authority on anything I just aim to share some
> opinions that others may find authoritive if there is any truth in
> them.
>
> brian_z *:-)
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" brian_z111@ wrote:
> >
> > Jan,
> >
> > 100,000 repetitions indeed!
> >
> > Quite correct.
> >
> >
> >
> > However on the subject of 'mindNOT' and Samadhi etc.
> >
> > There are a lot of misconceptions floating around in the
> west/modern
> > culture, on these subjects, because of the mis-interpretation of
> the
> > spiritual tenents of our BROTHERS OF THE EAST by unqualified and
> > unauthorised 'teachers'.
> >
> > There is a dirth of true spiritual teachers in the West, for
> reasons
> > that I won't go into.
> >
> > You are mixing up two different principles.
> >
> > In symbolic terms:
> >
> > CONSCIOUSNESS wears the CROWN.
> > The objective NOT is the subjective ALL (THE LOGOS).
> >
> > You are confusing the "Son of God" with our "Heavenly Father"
> >
> > In general Kharma Yoga is the method for the west/modern culture ==
> > the SOUL as an active principle == GOOD WORKS
> >
> > Pragmatically:
> >
> > Don't be concerned about NoMind - it is not for most of us - a very
> > abstract subject beyond the ken of the majority.
> >
> > NoMind != mindlessness
> >
> > You can't achieve it because it is not there to be achieved in the
> > way that you are conceiving it.
> >
> > Intuition is what we should be concerned with.
> >
> > Intuition is not mind reading OR an inferior psychic faculty i.e.
> > inferior to the Concete Mind (objective logic).
> > It is not the sixth sense, although we experience it as if it is.
> > It should be more correctly known as super-rationality.
> > It is our higher mind (also know as the Higher Self, the OverSoul,
> > The Solar Angel, Abstract Mind, Manas).
> > It bridges the gap between Heaven and Earth.
> >
> > In trading it is most appropriately used along the lines
> of 'positive
> > thinking', the 'power of the mind', 'untapped levels of
> > consciousness' etc which is the popular form of it in the USA where
> > it is a pseudo-religion (the reason for that is that it is so
> aligned
> > to the methods that are appropriate for the times).
> >
> > These methods are safe to use but it is very unfortunate if the
> > admonition to do GOOD WORKS doesn't accompany them.
> >
> >
> > In your case; you and your trading are working well and if it ain't
> > broke don't fix it.
> >
> > Forget your search for the spiritual Holy Grail of NoMind - that is
> > an impossible dream because it doesn't exist.
> >
> > I wouldn't worry about your personal spiritual welfare - you seem
> to
> > be sitting quite pretty.
> >
> > brian_z *:-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Jan Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Well, I had 6 years of martial arts training, where I understood
> > (but
> > > unfortunately not yet attained) the principle of "no-mind" when
> > executing
> > > tasks. I have also had some limited time as a military
> instructor,
> > and it
> > > became obvious that during patrol and combat, when people fire at
> > you
> > > (blanks and smoke grenades, but still), there ones who make it
> are
> > the ones
> > > who do not take the time to think.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > However, ones ability to enter this state of mind is dependent on
> > having
> > > enough training so that you subconsciously know that you really
> do
> > not have
> > > to think about how to move and shoot properly.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Of the Tekki Shodan pattern, the ancient warriors said something
> to
> > the
> > > effect of "Most patterns require at least 10 000 executions
> before
> > being
> > > mastered. However, you should not even consider demonstrating
> Tekki
> > Shodan
> > > to your master before you have had 100 000 repetitions."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > It is interesting to note that to reach the original state of
> mind
> > while
> > > carrying out un-natural activities, you do need lots of training,
> > and that
> > > some things in every field are a lot more difficult than the
> > average task in
> > > that skill set.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Best regards / JM
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _____
> > >
> > > Från: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > För
> > > brian_z111
> > > Skickat: den 1 augusti 2008 05:32
> > > Till: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Ämne: Re: SV: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment.
> > >
> > > Semantics plays a part in any discussion, especially when we are
> > > crossing cultures etc. It plays a greater role in 'spiritual'
> > > discussion than it does in any other.
> > >
> > > So, first the semantics.
> > >
> > > We are not limited to the term 'spirituality' as we can talk
> around
> > > the same area in many different terms (objective mind/subjective
> > > mind, rational/intuitive, super-consciousness, super-rationality
> > the
> > > collective unconscious, God, the Soul, the Divine, the Supreme
> and
> > > millions more).
> > >
> > > For ease of discussion I will stick with 'spirituality'.
> > >
> > > A few basic points:
> > >
> > > - generally the 'spiritual gene' is latent in humanity, across
> all
> > > cultures
> > > - it is more virile in a small %
> > > - it is particularly latent in the West/modern culture where we
> > have
> > > turned our back on our spirituality
> > > - I dare say this forum has more than its share of latent
> > > spirituality under the surface
> > > - the psychic opposites are not antagonistic forces e.g. soul
> > versus
> > > body but rather a complimentary whole so that is not a matter of
> > > logic/programming trading versus intuitive/discretionary trading.
> > We
> > > are all using both, at different times and places, even those who
> > > deny it (there is no such thing as a 100% objective/rational
> > person).
> > > - a healthy psyche has a good balance and flows between each
> > psychic
> > > pole in its own season.
> > >
> > > The main pragmatic points:
> > >
> > > - we can't bootstrap our subjective mind so we have to turn to
> > > mentors for written or oral teaching
> > > - some have more aptitude for it than others
> > > - I was very priviliged to have some experience in these matters
> > long
> > > before I started trading (my subjective consciousness/soul was
> > > already active and able to express itself in the world) but it
> > still
> > > took years of pragmatic, practical, objective work to 'program'
> the
> > > trading mind to match i.e. I had to pass a sufficient number of
> > > exams, in the core units, at the 'University of Trading', before
> I
> > > could 'enter the trading zone'.
> > >
> > > In laymans terms, my intuitive mind was functioning but I still
> had
> > > to go out and tediously train my rational/objective mind, and
> learn
> > > as many of the objective rules of trading as I could, before the
> > > subjective and the objective minds could synchronize in the
> trading
> > > room.
> > >
> > > "Give unto Caeser that which is Caesers AND give homage to your
> > God".
> > >
> > > brian_z
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ps.com, "Jan
> > > Malmberg" <jan@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I sometimes daytrade using even delayed data for the charts,
> and
> > a
> > > list
> > > > compiled list stored in my broker's web application. It works
> > > alright. Most
> > > > of the time I do short-to-mid-term swing trading. With just the
> > 15-
> > > min
> > > > delayed data. Ok, real-time for the indexes.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here's my opinion.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The three components that determine your success are usually:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Level of analysis. How good you can produce low-risk entries
> > > with a
> > > > probable future outcome, which of course is never totally
> > possible.
> > > > 2. Level of money management. How much you bet on one single
> > > trade, how
> > > > well you scale in, scale out, set and stick to stop-orders, and
> > > more.
> > > > 3. Level of spiritual attainment. How much you have attained the
> > > > "no-mind" state of the ancient warriors and spiritually
> achieved
> > > people.
> > > > Which means that you fearlessly execute trades while
> maintaining a
> > > > risk-appropriate behavior. Only really possible when you no
> > longer
> > > fear the
> > > > horrible market and what it might do to you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Which one is most important? The one you lack the most at the
> > > moment. I was
> > > > fortunate to start out with fairly solid money management from
> > the
> > > start.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Best regards / JM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _____
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ps.com
> > > [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ps.com]
> > > On Behalf
> > > > Of Louis P.
> > > > Sent: Thursday, 31 July 2008 2:15 PM
> > > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> > ps.com
> > > > Subject: [amibroker] Anyone actually making money?
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I was only wondering... Anyone actually making money or making
> a
> > > living
> > > > with AB and trading?
> > > >
> > > > I've been working on ideas and plans for over 7 months now and
> > > didn't find
> > > > anything convincing yet. I've been searching daily data, then
> > > hourly,
> > > > 15-minute and now I am into 1-minute data and nothing seems
> > > satisfying.
> > > > Been searching RSI, MFI, ADX, MA, HHV, LLV... nothing seems to
> > work.
> > > >
> > > > So... Anyone is making consistent money with this, and if so,
> at
> > > which
> > > > timeframe and how do you do it?
> > > >
> > > > I'm beginning to think about switching to tick database; it
> seems
> > > even
> > > > 1-minute is too slow for intraday trading. Anyone making money
> > with
> > > > 1-minute?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Louis
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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