[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

[amibroker] Re: Trading mutual funds...



PureBytes Links

Trading Reference Links

There are "old timers" and then there are old "timers" ... I wrote it 
before I realized the pun.  No shame.  I can't do AARP yet either 
even though they've been sending me stuff since I was 12.  I knew and 
understood the issues regarding the -1x -2x funds but was unaware 
that there were Fido sectors that could be shorted.  Never-the-less I 
think all would agree that out of the 6-8000 mf's that are out there 
that it is at most 1-2% that have this orientation.  It would be 
great if they ALL could be shorted directly but I think this is some 
how un-American as "timing" of mf's has become.

As far as contributing code goes, post what you want.  Frankly I 
could think of nothing better than this board becoming more FT-Like 
in this regard.

--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "bruce1r" <brucer@xxxx> wrote:
> Fred -
> 
> Before I post the next chapter, I'd like to add a couple is 
> additional notes to this thread on shorting.
> 
> Just FYI, there are about 10 Fidelity select funds that can be 
> shorted.  But, most people look at going "short" funds as playing 
the 
> Rydex, Profunds, or Potomac short index funds.  There is a subtle 
> difference in these though, from going short.  They mirror a 
multiple 
> (-1x, -2x) of the daily rate of change of an index.  This is 
> different from an actual short, where you margin percentage (and 
> therefore your effective leverage) changes over time value of the 
> fund.
> 
> P.S. Fred - you are going to shame me into posting AB versions of 
> some signals just to avoid being called an "old timer".  BTW, I 
don't 
> have an AARP card yet!
> 
> 
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> wrote:
> > I thought that's what I said, but last I looked these were pretty 
> > much limited to inverses of an index as opposed to being mirrors 
of 
> a 
> > lot of other stuff.
> > 
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "areehoi" <hoierman@xxxx> wrote:
> > > Fred & All:
> > > Rydex and Pro Funds have Short funds that you can play the same 
> as a
> > > short.  You can switch between there long and short funds on a 
> daily
> > > basis.
> > > 
> > > Dick H.
> > > 
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> wrote:
> > > > You can not short mutual funds, but there are some index 
> oriented 
> > > > funds typically based on SPX / NDX / RUT that are built to 
> track 
> > > > inversely from the indexes themselves.  So the purchase of 
> these 
> > > > would equate roughly to the shorting of the index.
> > > > 
> > > > Someone will undoubtedly come along and slap me upside the 
head 
> > for 
> > > > saying this but imho the short side of the market is more 
> > difficult 
> > > > to play than the long side.  There are several reasons for 
this 
> > not 
> > > > the least of which is that if for no other reason than 
> inflation 
> > the 
> > > > bias of the market is from a very long term perspective, up.  
> If 
> > one 
> > > > were to look at how many up days there were versus how many 
> down 
> > days 
> > > > one would see that over a very long period of time that the 
> ratio 
> > is 
> > > > about 60/40.  This is easy to see when looking at long term 
> > charts as 
> > > > the character of bull markts is differnet then that of bears, 
> > where 
> > > > the former has a tendancy to take a lot longer to move a 
> similar 
> > > > distance then the latter when one is looking at environments 
> that 
> > are 
> > > > of equal degree.
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "jtelang" <jtelang@xxxx> 
> wrote:
> > > > > Fred,
> > > > > 
> > > > > From this, do I understand it correctly that one can't go
> > > > > short on MF's? Why would one be sitting on cash otherwise?
> > > > > Or may be I'm not following what you said below...
> > > > > 
> > > > > Jitu
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> 
> wrote:
> > > > > > One other note regarding short term trading ... There are 
> of 
> > > > course 
> > > > > > ways to accomplish the same thing with out actually 
taking 
> > the 
> > > > > short 
> > > > > > term trades i.e. by hedging using a bear oriented fund 
> > leaving 
> > > > you 
> > > > > > more or less market neutral during the period of time 
when 
> > you 
> > > > > would 
> > > > > > have been sitting in cash.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> 
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > See below ...
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Chuck Rademacher" 
> > > > > > > <chuck_rademacher@x> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Maybe some of you guys (and gals) who trade mutual 
> funds 
> > can 
> > > > > > answer 
> > > > > > > a couple
> > > > > > > > of questions?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 1.  If there's no money to be made in (rotational 
> trading 
> > of) 
> > > > > > > ETF's, am I
> > > > > > > > correct when I assume that there's no money to be 
made 
> in 
> > the 
> > > > > > Rydex-
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > funds that only mimic an index?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Rydex's funds are pretty much either index or sector 
> > oriented.  
> > > > > > This 
> > > > > > > is not the kind of thing I personally like to trade.  
But 
> > for 
> > > > > > example 
> > > > > > > if you have a system that trades SPX, NDX or RUT well 
or 
> is 
> > > > good 
> > > > > at 
> > > > > > > jumping on the sector that's likely to be hot next as 
> > opposed 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > the 
> > > > > > > one that just was then it would certainly work in this 
> > scenario.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 2.  Based on current rules and redemption penalties, 
> > which 
> > > > > > families 
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > mutual funds can you recommend for rotational trading?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I don't personally trade on what one would consider to 
be 
> a 
> > > > > > > rotational basis.  As I and Ken stated, erf's or the 
> funds 
> > > > > > management 
> > > > > > > policies will eventually weed out most if not all the 
> short 
> > > > term 
> > > > > > > traders, especially the ones with large dollars.  So if 
> you 
> > are 
> > > > > > > looking to trade mf's with some sort of short term 
> oriented 
> > > > > > > rotational system as opposed to one that trades on an 
> > > > > intermediate 
> > > > > > > basis picking good candidates at the beginning of a 
> market 
> > buy 
> > > > > and 
> > > > > > > for the most part holding them until a market sell then 
> you 
> > are 
> > > > > > going 
> > > > > > > to find yourself pretty much limited to Rydex, ProFunds 
& 
> > > > Potomac.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 3.  If most (or all) such families of funds charge 
> early 
> > > > > > redemption 
> > > > > > > fees, is
> > > > > > > > it safe to assume that you are trading these mid to 
> long 
> > term?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > There's no sense in me working on a system that 
appears 
> > to do 
> > > > > > well, 
> > > > > > > only to
> > > > > > > > find that redemption fees are going to kill me.   Or, 
> is 
> > it 
> > > > > > > possible that
> > > > > > > > there's enough money to be made that the fees are of 
> > little 
> > > > > > > consequence?
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Most do NOT yet charge erf's and as you can see from 
> prior 
> > > > posts 
> > > > > > it's 
> > > > > > > debatable as to whether or not they will and if so what 
> the 
> > > > > minimum 
> > > > > > > holding periods will be to trigger those.  For short 
term 
> > > > > oriented 
> > > > > > > traders adding a 1-2% erf in a 7-14 day period would be 
> > enough 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > > send them elsewhere or to a different methodology.  
What 
> > the 
> > > > SEC 
> > > > > or 
> > > > > > > the fund companies themselves will do with this remains 
> to 
> > be 
> > > > > > seen.  
> > > > > > > They really can't afford to be too outrageous with it 
as 
> > every 
> > > > > > > 401k/IRA/VA account holder on the planet will be 
> screaming 
> > > > bloody 
> > > > > > > murder.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Out of all of the above, I'm really interested in 
some 
> > > > > > > recommendations on
> > > > > > > > mutual fund families to trade.  I can then go do my 
own 
> > > > > > > investigation as to
> > > > > > > > their fees, etc and devise my own systems that will 
> work 
> > with 
> > > > > > those 
> > > > > > > fees.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I wouldn't think families as there is no real reason to 
> > just 
> > > > like 
> > > > > > > there is no real reason to arbitrarilly limit ones 
> trading 
> > in 
> > > > > > stocks 
> > > > > > > to some specific group based on whatever.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Thanks


------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.
http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/GHeqlB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

Send BUG REPORTS to bugs@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Send SUGGESTIONS to suggest@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
-----------------------------------------
Post AmiQuote-related messages ONLY to: amiquote@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(Web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amiquote/messages/)
--------------------------------------------
Check group FAQ at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/files/groupfaq.html 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/