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RE: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING



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Chas,
    I went to the website to which you are referring. As they are selling a service, it seems to me that they are hyping this 'program trading' a bit. It seems to me that if program trading in general is that obvious that it wouldn't take long for other programs to arbitrage it away. It also seems to me that the people behind the website could easily front run or fade the orders of subscribers.
 
Just my thoughts,
Trey
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Meyer [mailto:chaze@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:15 AM
To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING

Trey-  (Alex & Steve Thank You; for I have read your replies)
 
Let's say that a LOT of Index Arb occurs on a particular day:  selling stocks/buying futures and buying stocks selling futures; well those numbers are going to show up in the total volume; but with little net effect on supply/demand based
on those indicators. 
 
The Friday example is from the H.L. Camp website to wit:
 
 
Program selling this morning:
The premium execution level for program selling today is
$-.40.  Sell programs at 9:52, 10:08, and 10:20, CDT dropped the Dow Jones Industrial Average down from 10449.52 at 99:52 to 10401.86 at 10:21.   Sell programs accounted for almost 50 points of the morning sell off.
 
Again; on some days one should be FADING the buy or sell program price levels; depending on the TYPE of program
trading that might occur.
 
Your last sentence may be the only practical answer; and that argument is certainly compelling. 

Chas
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:51 AM
Subject: RE: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING

Chas,
 
    This topic has always kind of confused me, so please pardon my questions if they seem stupid. The way I see it, people are still making the decisions as to what programs to trade and whether or not to trade them. In some cases, computers are simply doing what people used to do by hand, so in this respect program trading doesn't seem to be much different. But, in other cases computers are executing strategies that aren't humanly possible, like scalping systems that execute 1000 trades in a day. In this case, program trading does seem to be different.
 
    Exactly how does one distinguish between trades executed by a program and trades not executed by a program? If one could differentiate between the two, then it certainly seems possible that volume indicators could then be modified. How did someone determine that the drop in the Dow last Friday was the result of program trading? In order to front run those orders, it seems one would have to know of them in advance.
 
    I don't understand why you refer to program trades as not being 'pure supply and demand'. Aren't the forces of supply and demand simply the sum of all market participants regardless of who or why?
 
Best Regards,
Trey
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Meyer [mailto:chaze@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 9:56 AM
To: REAL TRADERS
Subject: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING

Group-
 
I was wondering if I can get some feedback on the subject of program trading; as it relates to volume analysis.  I've been doing a lot of studying on this subject and here's the issue.  In the old days; total volume of shares traded was just that; insofaras it accounted for all the exchange trading.  Today; end of day volume of shares traded on both the NYSE and the NASDAQ is greatly influenced by program trading.  It is said to account for about an estimated 50% of all volume.  Stated simply; program trading greatly influences total volume.  Now; it seems to me this has to greatly impact the INTERPRETATION OF VOLUME BASED INDICATORS; because we are no longer seeing the pure forces of supply and demand as in the days when program trading didn't exist?
 
To further complicate matters (if it is necessary to do so; but I am getting ahead of myself here) of all program trading;
only 10% is the index arb variety where stocks are sold; and futures are bought simultaneously; and vice versa.  However;
there are OTHER and perhaps MORE IMPORTANT types of program trading strategies which must impact the analysis
of supply and demand vis a via volume based indicators?  If I may provide an example.  Last Friday sell programs drove the Dow down about 50-points when sell price levels were hit and program trading came into the market.  For DAYTRADING purposes this was valuable information since one could have front run these orders on the short side.  However; on some days one would lose money and the correct strategy would be to fade a sell program by buying into the market at those levels and times. 
 
Daytrading impact aside; is there a way to modify volume based indicators which would provide a clearer representation
of pure supply/demand market generated information for the purposes of swing and end of day trading?  If someone could
please share their experiences and there are no answers to this dilema; it will at least save me a lot of wasted time and energy trodding a worthless path. 
 
If you have been with me this far; thank you for your time and attention; and any feedback.
 
Chas
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
for by program trading


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