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Hi Norm,
I don't know about karma, but Saddam signed an
agreement to cease hostilities at the end of the Gulf War promising to meet
certain conditions. Just as Germany did at the end of WW-I. And,
just as Germany did then, Saddam has failed to live up to those
commitments. It took Hitler 20 years to break the armistice but Saddam
only took about 20 minuets. The Gulf war has never ended, just ask any Air
Force pilot patrolling the no fly zone over Iraq, and any invasion of Iraq would
be just a continuation of the Gulf War. As a student of history, you know
this.
If we had had a president during the previous
administration who placed the interests of America above where he placed his
cigar this would have been resolved a decade ago.
Good luck and good trading,
Ray Raffurty
<BLOCKQUOTE
>
----- Original Message -----
<DIV
>From:
Norman
Winski
To: <A title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
href="">realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 2:27
PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [RT] Market
JJ,Sans judgement on right or wrong, history
teaches that the beginning ofthe end for great nations is when they
over reach their borders. I thinkthere is a strong consensus that
would like to see Saddamretire. However, shouldn't we lead by
example via the Golden Rule? Ifother countries don' like our
national leaders, should they invade the US?If no, how can we justify
doing the same? Whatconsititutes justification for invading another
country? Should theinvading country be concerned about a
possible self correcting "karma" fornations? We are still paying for
Viet Nam in infinite social costs. Howmany US lives were ruined, lasting
to the present, as a result of thisexperience? This is the
debate raging in my head. Hopefully, it willstimulate some interesting
discussion.Regards,Norman----- Original
Message -----From: "Jim Johnson" <jejohn@xxxxxxxxxxx>To: "EarlA"
<earl.a@xxxxxxxxxx>Cc: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>Sent:
Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:23 AMSubject: Re[2]: [RT]
Market> Hello EarlA,>> Your assessment is largely
on point but possibly overly focused on the> economics. All
action of governments and esp high risk ones are based> on multiple
motivations. that's another way of saying multiple> interests of
stakeholders converge. economics is a biggie--short term> and
long term.>> I am a hawk. I have not problem with being
imperialist when it suits> the situation for the USA. Whatever it
gets called, occupation of> Iraq is in the long term interests of the
US. The economics of it are> part of the issue but its much to
simplistic to say that is all. The> political risks are huge for
Bush. That says to me other things are> afoot. I believe we
are much more at war with radical Islam than most> people have come to
realize. We will be best served by being able to> fight part of
this war (economically, militarily, geo-politically,>
intelligence-wise) by having a base in the Middle East. This is
a> much bigger deal historically than meets the eye. This will
change> the balance of power in the world for decades.>>
BTW-- as you suggest, one reason why the weenies in Europe are against>
the taking of Iraq is that we will find they are in bed with Saddam.>
Double dealing skunks.>>> Best regards,> Jim
Johnson
mailto:jejohn@xxxxxxxxxxx>> --> Thursday, January 23,
2003, 9:02:43 AM, you wrote:>> E> First rule is that no
(rationally governed) country goes to war unless> E> economic
interests are at stake. The Revolutionary war was spurred onby>
E> wealthy "patriots" wishing to free their enterprise from the yoke
ofBritish> E> ownership and taxation. The British wanted to
preserve the flow ofcheap raw> E> materials from the Colonies.
The French wanted to put a dent in theBritish> E> and obtain
more favorable trade terms for themselves. The wealthy"patriots">
E> in the Colonies were more than happy to rouse the masses to their
causeand> E> finance the masses to shed their blood. I say this
not to make light ofthe> E> many true patriots involved in the
Revolution, but to show (in asimplistic> E> way) the role of
economic interests.>> E> There were two world wars. In both
cases, US business was making abundle> E> producing and selling
war materials to Europe. The Germans finallybegan> E> sinking as
many US cargo ships as they could find. The match whichbrought>
E> US entry into WW I was the sinking of passenger ships (the Lusitania
in> E> particular) which were, according to Germany, carrying
armamentsdestined> E> for Europe. During WW II, US ships
carrying armaments and goods toEurope> E> were once again the
target of attacks by German U boats which were> E> instructed to
avoid passenger ships. However it was the Japanese who> E> provided
the match by bombing Pearl Harbor in response to US blockadesand>
E> embargoes of natural resources in Asia.>> E> One should
never forget that politics and business interests are always> E>
strong bedfellows! In current events, one need look no further than
the> E> controversy regarding Iraq and North Korea. North Korea has
beenselling> E> armaments and (allegedly) chemical weapons for
years, is known topossess> E> several "nuculer" [sic] weapons,
and poses a truly serious threat to> E> Southeast Asia. North Korea
has no economic value because it has nonatural> E> resources and
has no money to buy anything from anyone. Note that the> E>
Europeans are equally as critical of North Korea as is the US.
TheNorth> E> Korean problem is relegated to talk. Iraq which
undoubtedly has someWMD> E> (which it does not export), is
sitting on the world's second largest> E> reserves of oil. Iraq buys
lots of stuff from Europe (also US whilefighting> E> the
Iranians and before invading Kuwait). Iraq is known to have used> E>
chemical weapons on Kurds and Iranians, but has not attacked the US or>
E> threatened the US. Iraq is now under threat of imminent attack from
theUS> E> and the first order of battle is securing the Iraqi
oil fields.European> E> business has been busy trading with Iraq
since the Gulf War: sellinglots of> E> proscribed materials and
obtaining important oil interests. Naturally,they> E> are
pushing European governments to protect their economic
interests.>> E> Earl>> E> ----- Original
Message -----> E> From: "TheGonch"
<thegonch@xxxxxxxxxx>> E> To:
<realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> E> Sent: Thursday, January 23,
2003 6:05 AM> E> Subject: Re: [RT] Market>>>
>> Perhaps I have my history wrong, but didn't the US refuse to
getinvolved> E> until it was attacked by the Japanese?>
>>> >> You talk as if fighting the Nazis was an act of
generosity, rather thanin> E> the best interests of the
US.> >>> >> Regards> >> DanG>
>>> >> EarlA wrote:> >> Absolutely! Did not
mean to slight anyone ... however the French seemto> >>
reserve their phobia for the US.> >>> >>
Earl> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----->
>> From: "Andrew Nopper" <tradera@xxxxxxxxxx>> >> To:
<realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> >> Sent: Wednesday, January
22, 2003 9:23 PM> >> Subject: RE: [RT] Market>
>>> >>> >> Hmmm ... then I guess
the French also owe allegiance to the Indians,> >> Nepalese,
Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Canadians and>
>> British> >> (did I
miss anyone?) who also gave their lives in defence of liberty,> E>
not> >> to> >>
mention the Russians, who gave the most lives, although not
directlyon> >> French soil. Seems like they owe a lot of
gratitude to a lot of peoplefor> >>
a> >> lot of time.> >>> >>
Andrew> >> -----Original Message----->
>> From: EarlA [mailto:earl.a@xxxxxxxxxx]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 8:51 PM>
>> To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: Re: [RT] Market> >>>
>>> >> Let's see ... France was happy to tweak
the British to further theirown> >> economic
interests during the Revolutionary War. Very few French>
>> actually>
>> gave their lives on American soil in defense
of American liberty.On> E> the> >>
other hand, hundreds of thousands of Americans have given their
liveson> >> French soil in defense of French
liberty during 2 World Wars. So the> >> scales>
>> are in balance and the French can now thumb their noses
at America?> >> Hardly!> >>>
>> I happen to think that Bush and crew are on the wrong
track but Ihardly> >> think we need lessons from
France!> >>> >> Earl>
>>> >> ----- Original Message ----->
>> From: "Andrew Nopper" <tradera@xxxxxxxxxx>>
>> To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:31 PM>
>> Subject: RE: [RT] Market> >>>
>>> >> > ... I guess they figure that
they're even after helping you toavoid> >>
paying> >> > foreign taxes on your tea ...>
>> >> >> > :)>
>> >> >> > Andrew>
>> > -----Original Message----->
>> > From: BobsKC
[mailto:bobskc@xxxxxxxxxxxx]> >> >
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:12 PM> >>
> To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>
> Subject: Re: [RT] Market> >>
>> >> >> >>
> [snip]> >> >>
>> > My God ... I just heard that France is
going to work with Germany> >> against>
>> > U.S. interests. Without America,
they'd all be speaking German.I> >>
do> >> not> >>
> understand the French people .. I never have. Oh well
..> >> >> >>
> Good trading ...> >> >>
>> > Bob> >>
>> >>> >>>
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