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The Trader
The symbol of all relationships among such men, the moral symbol of respect
for human beings, is the trader.
We, who live by values, not by loot, are traders, both in manner and spirit.
A trader is a man who earns what he gets and does not give or take the
undeserved.
A trader does not ask to be paid for his failure, he does not ask to be
loved
for his flaws.
A trader does not squander his body as fodder, or his soul as alms.
Just as he does not give his work except in trade for material values, so he
does not give the values of his spirit -- his love, his friendship, his
esteem -- except in payment and in trade for human virtue, in payment for
his
own selfish pleasure, which he receives from men he can respect.
The mystic parasites who have, throughout the ages, reviled the trader and
held him in contempt, while honoring beggars and looters, have known the
secret motive of their sneers:
a trader is an entity they dread - a man of justice.
from Atlas Shrugged
--Ayn Rand
>From: "Norman Winski" <nwinski@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Reply-To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Subject: Re: [RT] Mentors:What makes a good Mentor
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:47:47 -0400
>
>
> I find it strange that some who call themselves traders aren't willing
>to
>trade something of value such as money to gain knowledge which is
>potentially more valuable than money. I try to live by
>the credo, "value given for value received" A succesful trader must be
>well balanced in all aspects of life or he shall soon topple. Seek balance
>in all things, grasshoper.
>Ying your yang and yang your ying.
>
>
>Balancedly,
>
>Norman
>
>__/\__
>_____
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bob Heisler" <bheisler@xxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 6:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [RT] Mentors:What makes a good Mentor
>
>
> > "A truly accomplished trader, if he is really well-meaning and only
> > motivated
> > by helping others, would not charge a dime, because he can make all that
> > tuition money and more with his eyes closed, in the markets.
> > Otherwise, you are not a noble mentor out to help your fellow less
> > accomplished traders, you are just a business proprietor in the business
>of
> > "teaching", "instructor", or "tutor"."
> >
> > This is pure bunk. First, why is this truly accomplished trader
>obligated
> > to give his knowledge to you for free? You mentioned you spent 15 years
> > learning your craft...do you work for free? And if so, how do then make
>a
> > living?
> >
> > Secondly, the best relationships almost always derive from a scenario
>where
> > both parties have something at stake.
> >
> > FWIW, I have done both and have come to the conclusion that the only
>thing
> > harder than learning how to trade is teaching it. It takes years to
>gain
> > the knowledge and experience to do this, and most people don't have the
> > resources to go through the process. Experience CAN'T be taught.
> >
> > Bobh
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Levent Erbora" <erbora@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [RT] Mentors:What makes a good Mentor
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Ira Tunik" <irat@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:33 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [RT] Mentors:What makes a good Mentor
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why, doesn't the doctor give you back his fee if you don't get well?
> > Does
> > > a
> > > > lawyer give back his fee if he loses the case? Will the cleaner
>give
> > you
> > > back
> > > > your money if he doesn't get the spot out of your cloths? Have you
> > tried
> > > to get
> > > > your tuition and costs back from a University or any other
>educational
> > > > institution? Have you ever had an educational institution guaranty
>that
> > > you
> > > > would be a success if you took law, art, medicine from them? Have
>any
> > > ever
> > > > guaranteed that you even pass the bar, the medical exams, the Civil
>or
> > > > Structural engineering license tests? I doubt it very much.
> > >
> > > Ira,
> > >
> > > I think you have misunderstood the context of my remark.
> > > We were (at least I was) talking about how great a trader a "mentor"
>could
> > > be if he is trying to make money "teaching" others instead of trading.
> > > A truly accomplished trader, if he is really well-meaning and only
> > motivated
> > > by helping others, would not charge a dime, because he can make all
>that
> > > tuition money and more with his eyes closed, in the markets.
> > > Otherwise, you are not a noble mentor out to help your fellow less
> > > accomplished traders, you are just a business proprietor in the
>business
> > of
> > > "teaching", "instructor", or "tutor".
> > > And if you are willing to go through all the headaches, red tape,
> > > hand-holding, administration, marketing, customer service, etc. etc.
>of
> > that
> > > business for whatever income you are expecting, rather than TRADING
>for
> > that
> > > income, then that should tell us something about your trading
>expertise
>or
> > > abilities.
> > > If I choose to hire your services, ofcourse I would not expect a
>refund,
> > > just like the examples you have given above.
> > > But to say that the mentor is charging these exorbitant fees NOT for
> > > monetary gain or out of financial motivation, but JUST to HELP the
>student
> > > to learn better, just for the student's own good and benefit is
> > ridiculous!
> > >
> > >
> > > >You want to learn
> > > > how to make a living and you want someone to show you how to do it
>for
> > > nothing.
> > > > That seems to be the case.
> > >
> > > You are wrong. I KNOW how to make a living, and I am making a decent
> > living.
> > > I don't want and I don't need anybody to show it to me for free or for
>a
> > > fee. I have learned (and still learning) all that I needed to learn
>the
> > last
> > > 15 years.
> > >
> > > >You can't practice any other profession without a
> > > > license, but you can buy and sell stocks, futures and derivatives
>if
> > you
> > > can
> > > > put up the cash. So any one with 2 nickels to rub together is an
> > instant
> > > > professional trader, because some firm will open an account for him.
>If
> > > it
> > > > weren't for all of you out there willing to go it alone it wouldn't
>be
> > so
> > > easy
> > > > for the rest of us earn a living or just enjoy the fruits of our
> > trading.
> > > Ira
> > >
> > > Well, I did go it alone, and still do, I wonder why it is so easy for
>me
> > > too.
> > > Maybe I am trading against your students?
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Levent
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Levent Erbora wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "STEVE ROBERTS" <steve80866@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 3:39 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [RT] Mentors:What makes a good Mentor
> > > > >
> > > > > > There is one important characteristic about learning for most
> > > learners:
> > > > > We tend to take most seriously that which costs us the most.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As a psychotherapist I make sure that people pay enough that
>they
> > take
> > > the
> > > > > therapy seriously. Even in my pro bona work I make sure the
>people
> > pay
> > > > > something for just this reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I and a few others on this list have gone for training with a
> > retired
> > > > > trader, who charges a significant fee. The fee is significant to
>us,
> > > but
> > > > > not that significant to him given his resources. This arrangement
> > > ensures
> > > > > that we take the learning very seriously.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In theory, I think free is best, but most of us won't value it
> > without
> > > > > paying for it...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Steve
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If that were really the case, then I would expect these noble
>masters
> > to
> > > > > "REFUND" the money back to their "grashoppers" once the
>grasshoppers
> > > > > "graduated".
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Levent
> > > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > realtraders-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > realtraders-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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> >
> >
>
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