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<x-html><html><head></head><BODY bgcolor="#C8D8D8"><p><font size=2 color="#000000" face="Arial">Hi<br><br>Can anybody please tell me where to find two things:<br><br>1) Other than Yahoo, a site which provides the daily data (O,H,L,C) for the Dow Jones and SP 500 cash.<br><br>2) A site which gives the daily total of each of NYSE advancers and decliners, not just the net.<br><br>I'm getting tired of going through sites and just finding closing prices.<br><br>Thanks,<br><br>Wayne</p>
</font></body></html></x-html>From ???@??? Mon Apr 13 16:39:24 1998
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 17:39:22 -0500
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From: John Brown <jbrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: ADMIN: A important survey
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SURVEY UPDATE
Today was set for our survey deadline. Thanks go out to all those who
took the time to respond. I am sure the results would be very surprising
and of interest to all. Unfortunately, it may be difficult to draw valid
conclusions, since the response to the survey has been underwhelming. Only
36 members of RT discussion group, out of a total of more than 950 members
have submitted their trading approach categories. So in case there may be
some who missed the earlier posts, let's extend the deadline 2 more days,
until midnite Wednesday. Please, everyone who is still reading, make your
eleventh hour contribution, take a few seconds to designate a number, click
the browser and send the post. The survey guidelines are again given below.
Remember, it's all easy, strictly confidential (not even revealing much of
any details to the mechanical tabulator), and no reason to be hesitant. Your
simple participation to the overall gathering of information may be very
interesting and of practical value for the group as a whole to benefit.
If anyone is being held up by any details or questions of survey criteria,
feel free to request clarification-- you can email me privately if you like.
SURVEY PROCEDURE
Following is a summary of the survey procedure. Following this summary, there
will be an elaboration to hopefully clarify details, so it should be easy to
determine what your trading approach category is, and if you exceed the
survey profit threshold. Then again at the end the suvey submission instructions
will be repeated. Remember the criteria are cut and dry, based on following
definitions.
SURVEY RESPONSES GO TO FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
survey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ONLY ONE REPLY PERPERSON.
IN BODY OF EMAIL REPLY DESIGNATE CATEGORY 1,2,3,4 OR 5 AS BEST DESCRIBING YOUR
APPROACH TO TRADING. (FOR MOST THIS IS ALL THAT IS REQUIRED FOR SURVEY.)
IF 12 PLUS APPLIES TO YOU FOLLOWING DESIGNATION IS ALSO MADE IN BODY OF EMAIL.
DESIGNATE 12 PLUS IF YOUR AFTER EXPENSE PRFOITS FROM TRADING 3/31/97-3/31/98
EXCEEDED 12,000.00. IF NOT 12 PLUS, NO DESIGNATION IS MADE.
5 CATEGORIES OF TRADING APPROACHES
The following five categories will be definitive for the purpose of this survey.
Simply determine which category best describes your own approach to trading.
The definitions are lengthy, in an attempt to answer all possible questions
and be all inclusive of just about any approach one might use.
(Note: we know that there may be may different ways to break down categories
of approaches to trading. For a survey design some decision must be made to
draw the lines and go with it. The attempt here is to differentiate some
idea among subjective vs. objective approaches, and "technical indicator"
vs "chart analysis/common sense, or number based" approaches to trading.
What we have settled upon with the following definitions will be good enough
for useful conclusions, and should be adequate to fit anyone's approach.
So please don't worry about splitting hairs. The same applies to our profit
threshold. Obviously lots of arguments could be made for higher or lower values,
or the preference for % based return, different account sizes, etc. No way to
have all. Our simple criteria will be good enough for useful conclusions. So,
again no need to split hairs.)
DETERMINE YOUR CATEGORY AND REPLY WITH CATEGORY NUMBER IN BODY OF YOUR EMAIL
REPLY.
SURVEY RESPONSES GO TO FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
survey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1.Many software derived indicators, and/or any subjective judgement . (No
need to split hairs about what is an indicator or not. The ones common in
software programs, like TS, SC, MS, FS, Ensign, Apsen, or NP, Get, OT, WW,
etc. Canned, programmed, no matter.)
Also, whether or not you use indicators, if you approach allows for any
judgement, either subjective application, or somewhat objective, but sometimes
override, or pick and choose trades. This category includes mechanical systems,
if the user overrides signals, or picks and chooses signals.
(Note. Survey is meant to be cut and dry. If you follow mechanical or objective
rules 90% of the time, or your method is "95%" objective, you still are in
category #1, since your approach uses some subjectivity.) This category
includes all of the geometric techniques and the more subjective oriented
"forecasting turns" approaches. Gann, Elliott Wave, cycles, astrological, etc.,
are in this category, unless the application has been strictly objectively
quantified to the extent that it has been fully mechanized, such that it could
be automatically traded by any trader with the written rules or software
automated signals. In that case, a trader using these tools might fit into
categories #3 or #5.
2. Not indicator based. Using chart only, or pivot numbers, or some other
numbers (Fib, chart support resistance, simple trendlines, chart analysis and
"common sense", which may include some fundamental thinking (Reports'
influences, etc.). As in #1, also using judgement, either subjective application,
or somehat objective, but sometimes override, and choose trades. This
category includes mechanical systems, if the system is chart or number based,
(but without software derived technical indicator tools) and the user overrides
signals, or picks and chooses signals.
3.Indicator based. Strictly no ambiguity 100% mechanical application of rules
which have been thoroughly backtested with 100% objective rules for all entry
and exit criteria, that could be universally understood and traded with exact
same exit and entry points, achievable by another trader who has read and
understood the rules.
4. As in #3, but with no indicators, other than chart,
price levels, or mathematical levels. Strictly no ambiguity 100% mechanical
application of rules which have been thoroughly backtested with 100% objective
rules for all entry and exit criteria, that could be universally understood
and traded with exact same exit and entry points, achievable by another trader
who has read and understood the rules.
5. Any 100% mechanical system with computer generated signals for entry and exit.
(Might be a vendor's TS system, or your own programmed mechanical system, or
other software mechanical system generating orders. Or same thing with
orders automatically plce with broker assistance, if computer generated aoutomatic
signals.) No judgement, the computer beeps or indicates time and
price, and trade is taken on every signal, exited on every exit signal.
CRITERIA OF PROFITABILITY
Our criteria of "profitability" will be simply defined as after expense income
at a level that can certainly be considered bare minimum, 12,000.00 from past 12
months, 3/31/97 through 3/31/98. That means, after all trading related expenses,
data feed or subscriptions, newsletters, systems, seminars, books, methods,
advisories, etc., have been paid out, your trading has generated at least
12,000.00. Again, we are cut and dry for the survey. If your profit after
all expenses is 11,200.00, close but no cigar. No need to reply to
12 PLUS part of survey. If 12,000.00 profit was made 1/1/97 to 1/1/98,
but not 12,000.00 from 3/3/97-3/3/98, again close but no cigar. No need to
reply to 12 PLUS part of survey.(A simple definition to avoid rate of return
and % on equity debates. All we are looking for is a really low common
denominator of what even someone with most modest aspirations might deem
justifiable as a full time profession. Less than minimum wage.)
WHEN YOU CLICK THE BROWSER BUTTON, IN THE BODY OF YOUR EMAIL REPLY, SIMPLY
SPECIFY 12 PLUS, IF YOUR TRADING PROFITS 3/31/97-3/31/98 EXCEEDED 12,000.00
AFTER ALL TRADING RELATED EXPENSES.
SUMMARY:
SURVEY RESPONSES GO TO FOLLOWING ADDRESS:
survey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
IN BODY OF EMAIL REPLY DESIGNATE CATEGORY 1,2,3, OR 4 AS BEST DESCRIBING YOUR
APPROACH TO TRADING.
IF 12 PLUS APPLIES TO YOU FOLLOWING DESIGNATION IS ALSO MADE IN BODY OF EMAIL.
DESIGNATE 12 PLUS IF YOUR AFTER EXPENSE PRFOITS FROM TRADING 3/31/97-3/31/98
EXCEEDED 12,000.00.
IF NOT 12 PLUS, NO DESIGNATION IS MADE.
REMEMBER ONLY ONE REPLY PER PERSON. STRICT CUT AND DRY ANSWERS ACCORDING
TO DEFINITONS OF SURVEY DESIGN. THE SUCCESS AND USEFULNESS OF THIS SURVEY
FOR ALL OF US DEPENDS ON PARTICIPATION AND HONESTY OF ALL RESPONSES.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxzzzzzzzzzzzzzzoooooooozzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Reminders:
Hopefully this can be accomplished in a
manner which requires almost no effort by group members, other than clicking
on the browser and sending in a category number and possibly minor
additional info. The design will be such that no ebarrassment can possibly
come to any individual. No disclosure of any weaknesses, nor inflation of
reputation, since all input will be guaranteed the utmost in confidentiality,
with even the tabulator knowing almost nothing of any significant detail
about the respondents anyway. (Only a category designation and whether above
or below a general threshold level of profit.) Even this insignificant
information will be kept absolutely private and undisclosed to anyone
for any reason. Only the nameless final numbers of categories and
profitability of trading approaches will be tabulated and presented.
Finally, everyone should feel completely free to participate. Also the value
of this research depends entirely on the participation and honesty of all
participants. Remember, we all know the commonly documented facts show that
90-95% of all traders are losing money, or close to it anyway. No one should
feel shy about a confidential anonymous reply to a survey when we already fully
expect only about 5-10% of respondents would be expected to be profitable.
And even fewer respondents should be found to exceed our 12 PLUS requirement.
So please do participate, since we will all gain from our collective experience.
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