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For Mr.Maxey and others that need help, a re-post;
and a suggestion to leave the axes to grind, on personal e-mail;
trading is difficult enough without the personal jabs and unloading
your negativity on the entire listgroup. An open
mind (and heart) is essential. Enjoy your weekend and relax.
Life is Very short.
Sincerely, :)
Wayne
Return-Path: owner-realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:22:21 -0400
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Sender: owner-realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: "Tom Alexander" <gta3@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: GEN: IQ and trading (Murray Math thread)
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As a broker, I have a very interesting viewpoint from which I have been
able to learn and watch other traders both succeed and fail. And yes, it IS
true that most people fail at trading. I define failing as meaning they
reach a point where they give it up. Most quit because they begin to lose
more money than they can afford to do without. Some quit because while they
may be marginally successful in terms of making money, it otherwise
detracts from their lives to the degree that it is simply not worth that
cost. I have some customers who will trade successfully for a year or two,
take a year or two off, and pick right up where they left off. I have
customers that successfully daytrade, some that successfully position
trade, and yes, some that do both. NONE of them are following the exact
same method, computer program, guru, system, oscillator, book, etc., etc.
Get ready!! Here, for the first time ever is the BIG SECRET: They have
learned what works for them and they stick with it. They are COMFORTABLE
with their trading and could care less what I do or don't do or what
somebody else proclaims to be the mystical secret of the markets.
By the way, the only thing more laughable than some of the promises of
market magic on this list are the vitrolic reponses to something either
ridiculous or useful, but certainly harmless!! I like Eddie's approach and
look upon it as instructional (and actually kind of humerous).
The post by 5150 (sorry, I know you've posted your name before but I've
forgotten) below is EXCELLENT. It explains how some people finally reach
the necessary comfort level with their trading that is a requisite for
success. I suggest you print it out and save it.
Regards,
Tom Alexander
----------
> From: 5150@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: RealTraders Discussion Group <realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: GEN: IQ and trading (Murray Math thread)
> Date: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 6:24 PM
>
> HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE?
>
> >From everything I've heard or experienced, success in trading
> is quite similar to success in almost any field; it takes
> time, effort, and an unrelenting desire to succeed. I've never
> heard of anyone who was an overnight success. Perhaps they
> exist, but I doubt it. Others with larger experience have said
> that it takes 3 years minimum to make a trader, and I tend to
> believe that's about right.
>
> WHAT DOES IT TAKE?
>
> Experience, and learning from it seems to be the biggest factor
> in trader success. There are many different styles that seem to
> win, from the highly-technical-cognitive to the person who can
> just trade from watching price action as a number on a screen.
> And there are those who are hot one day and dead the next. But
> those who exhibit long term survivability seem to have an
> ongoing ability to continue to adapt and learn based on their
> recent experiences and the changes in the market.
>
> WHY?
>
> Trading seems more like a performing art than deterministic work.
> Most of us are brought up to believe that you go to work, you
> put in your time, and you get paid. Our schools teach that there
> are right and wrong answers. We are conditioned into a black
> and white binary deterministic world view. This clearly is not
> the case for trading. In trading, you're more like a hunter.
> You have costs of going out. When you're out, you may or may not
> see game. If you do, you may or may not have the ability and
> tools at hand to take it. There's no guarantees. It's also like
> being a performer or athelete. You can't predict what the
> conditions are going to be like or what the other side (if there
> is one) is going to do. You're live. There are no right or
> wrong answers.
>
> I believe that getting over this binary deterministic reality
> model is one of the hardest things people must do in becoming
> traders. It goes against everything our society conditions us
> to believe. (Buy the car, get the girl; work hard, get the
> American dream, etc, etc.)
>
> Another central realization that is hard for people to get
> is that traders have control over nothing except themselves.
> We are hung up on control as people. We try to control our
> businesses, our spouses or relationships, our children, our
> lives, our cars, or whatever. Control is almost always
> directed at things external to ourselves. Make it happen.
> Make the sale. Get them to do this or that. We're full of it.
> Traders can't do any of that. The market is like the ocean.
> It has it's own way. We are like sailors. The wind and tide
> does what it wants; our lot is to make of it what we can.
> This also goes against the grain of conventional conditioning.
>
> It's often said that cognitive types have a problem with trading
> because they are given to overthinking a situation. Conversely,
> it's said that military people often have an edge in trading.
> Personally, this has been a big challenge for me. Word has it
> that engineers and scientists are often handicapped by their
> tendency to look deep into causality, being unsatisfied simply
> with an empirical approach. I can relate here. To get over
> this one must learn to balance this curiosity and desire to
> understand with the knowledge that at times, perhaps most times,
> simple action even without deeper understanding is more effective,
> nay necessary for survival.
>
> In the military you're typically taught to take action, often
> without knowing why. You're taught survival and management of
> risk from a most personal perspective. And you're taught the
> value of action versus inaction. Officers are typically taught
> if you're taking fire to advance or retreat but don't just sit
> and get cut up. Think back to your own experiences and consider
> how your trading improved when you learned to just simply get
> out when you're wrong. My own performance took a big jump up
> when I took this doctrine and applied it.
>
> When we can break out of some of these preconditioned ways
> that are inappropriate to the nature of the trader's world,
> we achieve a necessary but not necessarily sufficient enabler
> to trading success.
>
> I personally know of nobody who started out this way. It seems
> we all had to learn from the markets themselves.
>
>
> Wayne Moody wrote:
> >
> > At 10:13 AM 8/20/97 -0700, Rick Ratchford wrote:
> > >I thought Norman brought out some interesting points that I have to
> > >agree with.
> >
> > Me too. It would seem that success in the pit or away has little
> > to do with IQ or education. But what's going on when an untrained
> > newcomer does nothing but watch a quote display and knows when
> > to buy and sell? A certain orientation to do the opposite of the
> > crowd? An ability to see what the market wants to do from the
> > flow and sequence of trades?
> >
> > Who on this list feels that he/she is a natural trader, who could
succeed
> > with nothing but access to a quote machine? How do you describe what
> > it is you see? Or is it what you do with what you see?
> >
> > Who else has known a natural trader? What was it the trader had?
> >
> > Has anyone here started out poorly, but learned how to trade by just
> > watching the market, getting a "feel" for when to trade?
> >
> > For the rest of us:
> >
> > Is there anyone who has not been deep into studying a method, or doing
> > their own research, and wondered "Geez, why is this so hard"? How far
> > do you widen the search when looking for your own convictions?
> >
> > Simplicity does seem to be the thing. Your stuff tells you what's
likely
> > to happen next. You trade. It happens or it doesn't. You exit. After
all,
> > there's only 3 possible outcomes: up, down, or neither. Good trading is
> > reacting properly to what it does.
> >
> > Nobody knows the next move. Some people know the probability of the
> > next move. Some of those people know how to speculate on probability.
> > And some of those people can control greed and fear. You can hack
> > your way out of the loss column with the right attitude, but it's
> > a long uphill climb. Probably leaving some of us a little jealous
> > of the pizza delivery boy who stumbles into the pit and discovers
> > his gift.
> >
> > I'd like to see input from those who did well right from the start.
> > What exactly is the nature of this talent?
> >
> > Wayne Moody
> > wlm95@xxxxxxxxxx
>
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