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Hallo Bilo,
the way you express your opinion about some one elses opinion is
interesting.
But maybe i did not express certain things correct or you misinterpreted
them or you did not read them correct
I did not say that:
1. ++you can make money system trading on dirty data ...
2. ++intraday data is dirty and because markets are manipulated...
3. ++your claim to use the worst entry point...
4. ++and may be the other statements that you said i have made arent that
correct too... i dont know. To be honest I did not read them.
I am just trying to give a different view. I respect your "different
opinion" too.
I have a feeling that there is little respect for different opinions here.
The level of how people express differences is something that makes me
really think.
Volker Knapp
Wealth-Lab Inc.
http://www.wealth-lab.com
http://www.wealth-lab.de
++-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
++Von: Bilo Selhi [mailto:biloselhi@xxxxxxxxxxx]
++Gesendet: Sonntag, 17. März 2002 00:05
++An: Volker Knapp; Beyond OddBall; omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx
++Betreff: Re: A Professional comments on Pierre's software - - -
++
++
++you should know that even
++EOD data is mostly dirty... UNLESS you download
++it from a vendor that does TICK CLEANING and
++compiling of daily data every night after the market is
++closed.
++your claim that you can make money system trading
++on dirty data is, sorry to say, BS.
++most of pro systematic firms clean their data tick by
++tick and that's the only way to go.
++other considerations like saying you have to trade
++EOD because intraday data is dirty and because
++markets are manipulated is, sorry to say, BS.
++your claim to use the worst entry point is, sorry to say, BS.
++
++personal opinions don't count when trading, what counts
++is reality and the reality is in DATA:
++- you must clean data tick by tick to get clean intraday or
++end of day data. it is not hard to do, in fact it is pretty easy to
++accomplish if the platform is well designed...
++- your system must work on any time frame within certain
++data normality, liquidity, time constraints. EVEN 1 MIN
++AND TICK TIME FRAMES ALLOW PROFIT EXTRACTION
++IF... YOU KNOW HOW TO UTILIZE MARKET MICROSTRUCTURE.
++in fact there's been firms operating on the level of market
++microstructure
++for years now extracting millions of dollars on market
++scalping... and...
++there's been firms operating on monthly data and taking out
++millions too...
++bottom line is, you can make it if you know how on any time frame...
++BUT NOT ON DIRTY DATA... systematic automated trading don't go
++hand in hand with bad data. it just does not fly...
++
++now, if we are talking primitive systems, or half ass systems
++or methodologies
++or simply discretionary trading then who cares about how dirty the
++data is...
++
++CLEAN DATA + GOOD SYSTEM = PROFIT
++DIRTY DATA + GOOD SYSTEM = LOSS ( you can't take Ferrari off
++road , won't work )
++CLEAN DATA + BAD SYSTEM = LOSS
++DIRTY DATA + BAD SYSTEM = LOSS
++
++note that the only way you make money is if you got both
++clean data and good system...
++THIS IS REALITY of systematic trading ...and it's simple.
++
++any trading platform that offers *system development and trading but
++does not address data issues = AMATEUR NIGHT.
++that's just about puts every existing *system development and
++trading platform into that category including tradestaion and your
++wealthlab platform, etc...
++
++bilo.
++ps. that's not just my opinion... it's the truth...
++also, good systems are never sold retail and clean rt data is
++hard to find...
++you should understand why...look at the equation.
++
++
++----- Original Message -----
++From: "Volker Knapp" <vk@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
++To: "Beyond OddBall" <beyond_oddball@xxxxxxxxx>; <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
++Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:18 PM
++Subject: AW: A Professional comments on Pierre's software - - -
++
++
++> Hi,
++>
++> well in all fairness to PO and MB, this frustration results more from
++> someone who was not able to create a trading strategy with the given
++> software. That does not say anything about the quality of the
++"developing"
++> software unless the software seller claims you will make huge
++profits (which
++> sounds more like a system seller) with my software. Well, and
++maybe in this
++> case it might be a border line.
++>
++> Anyway. I am doing system development since I can count
++numbers. Why was I
++> doing it? To make easy money. Easy money for me is, place an order, be
++> percistent and make consistent profits. ;-)
++> Personally I feel that the focus of to many people here is on
++intra day
++> trading. Intra day trading is putting me infront of the
++screen again = work
++> = no freedom = not for me!
++>
++> And then you get this never ending discussions of this RT
++data is 2 minutes
++> delayed, oh no it is not delayed, it is the time stamp that
++is delayed, oh
++> no ticks are missing....!
++>
++> I say: So what!
++>
++> Any system that need 100% crystal clear intra day data will
++never survive.
++> Because real live looks different. Then the quality of the
++real time data
++> becomes the excuse for the personal failure (or failure of
++the system).
++> The market has been manipulated to do intra day trading (more
++commission,
++> pay more for data, buy more expensive software). Or maybe
++those who failed
++> in longterm trading think they have to make it short term? Who knows.
++>
++> Oh and did I mention commission - slippage - average profit ratio...
++>
++> There have been numerous articles in the www.traderclub.com
++forum, about
++> longterm trading with EOD data, good money management and diversified
++> markets. Some how it seems to work.
++> My suggestion is, test a system and use the worst entry point
++(the high or
++> the low of the bar), and see how it would have done then.
++>
++> So, this is just my personal opinion.
++>
++> Volker Knapp
++> Wealth-Lab Inc.
++> http://www.wealth-lab.com
++> http://www.wealth-lab.de
++>
++>
++> PS: I am surprised to see PO and MB hand in hand ;-)
++>
++>
++>
++>
++>
++>
++> ++-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
++> ++Von: Beyond OddBall [mailto:beyond_oddball@xxxxxxxxx]
++> ++Gesendet: Samstag, 16. Marz 2002 15:12
++> ++An: omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx
++> ++Betreff: A Professional comments on Pierre's software - - -
++> ++
++> ++
++> ++
++> ++Before any of you go out and drop 29.5 G's (or even 5
++> ++G's) on any of Pierre's creations (or any other system
++> ++vendor) you may want to read one of the better emails
++> ++I received on Friday. This guy asked me to please not
++> ++mention specifically his former occupation (which
++> ++unfortunately would add even more validity to his
++> ++creditials). Note what he mentions though about his
++> ++previous career and you'll probably figure it out:
++> ++
++> ++
++> ++Beyond:
++> ++
++> ++I've been trying for years to find something that will
++> ++work Out Of Sample.
++> ++No luck; no big money lost so far, except Trade
++> ++Station costs.
++> ++
++> ++Spent 3 months one winter, trying to get Safir-X to
++> ++generate a trading system that would work OOS- no
++> ++cigar. In fairness to Pierre, he did
++> ++offer good technical support, and really tried to help
++> ++me succeed. However, I think Pierre's Back Prop NN
++> ++algorithm does not generalize well into
++> ++new, unseen market behavior (other NN algorithms may
++> ++work better, but this is not clearly supported by
++> ++research). But it was Au Revoir. Never saw anything
++> ++from Safir-X that came close to adequate OOS
++> ++performance.
++> ++
++> ++It was a demo, so I never got stuck paying the big
++> ++money Pierre is asking, for a product that did not
++> ++succeed for me.
++> ++
++> ++Spent the last 2 years trying to get various Trade
++> ++Station systems developed in several markets, but they
++> ++always failed in OOS tests.
++> ++
++> ++Worked with Neural Shell for 6 weeks: No luck. Got
++> ++most of my money back.
++> ++
++> ++Just spent 6 weeks with another trading software
++> ++package: No successful OOS performance that is even
++> ++remotely tradable. Supposed to get my money
++> ++back.
++> ++
++> ++And I've got programming skills, and scientific
++> ++research credentials/publications from a previous
++> ++career!
++> ++
++> ++I'm mad, and though I've been personally lucky so far,
++> ++I'm tired of hearing about the men and women who spent
++> ++big money on trading software, and ended up holding
++> ++the bag (a lot of my friends). No one should have to
++> ++spend money on trading software that is bogus.
++> ++
++> ++Now, after your post, I can get what I want cheap,
++> ++work with it for as long as I like, and if I ever do
++> ++get something that does work, I'll gladly
++> ++go to the vendor, and buy the latest version at the
++> ++retail price.
++> ++
++> ++Knowing that some sincere vendors do put in
++> ++considerable cost and effort into their products, my
++> ++conscience would push me to purchase the latest
++> ++version, at the current price. After I know the stuff
++> ++really works, and I can build a career on it.
++> ++
++> ++No more "30 day trials" that expire before I really
++> ++have had the time to thoroughly research and test out
++> ++trading software.
++> ++
++> ++Thanks from a grateful aspiring trader.
++> ++
++> ++********************************************
++> ++
++> ++Beyond sez:" Ok, Pierre, it's time to put up that
++> ++.ela, or shut up. Prove your stuff works. No more
++> ++beating around the bush, no more delays."
++> ++
++> ++
++>
++>
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