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----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> > But they didn't. They burnt those who believed in witchcraft instead of
> > Christianity.
> > And ask the Sioux if they felt unsupressed and had freedom of religion.
> >
> > Are you in a state of denial?
>
> I never denied any of this..... there will always be evil in the world
> whether it is called by Muslim, Christian, Agnostic, or whatever
> label you wish......you are dreaming if you think it can be escaped by
> mere philosophy. Man himself must be changed before evil is absent.
> "Let the sleeper sleep"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> To: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:44 AM
> Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> > Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:32 PM
> > Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> >
> >
> > > I can think of Joseph Stalin..who committed many crimes because he
> didn't
> > > think he would ever answer to a higher authority than himself. How
about
> > our
> > > neighbor in Cuba? Do you believe that he fears a higher authority than
> > man?
> > > History has many records of men who think THEY were the highest
> > authority...
> > > Caesar, Hitler.
> >
> > Yes but they all operated under a system of mysticism.
> > Religion, political extremism, rampant nationalism, monarchies.
> > It's all the same, just a different crown.
> >
> > > A fanatic, believes he is doing something for a god, ....
> > > The fanatic is dangerous when mislead.....
> >
> > The definition of a fanatic is not someone who believes he is doing
> > something for a god.
> > Any one of them can be fanatical and they are all potentially dangerous.
> But
> > mysticism provides those who seek to mislead with the extra leverage.
> >
> > > You Wrote:
> > > <This is just YOU choosing to attribute their greatness to their
> religious
> > > beliefs. It could just as easily be attributed to their desire to
have
> > all
> > > men be considered <equal and to escape from the shackles of a
> > > feudal/monarchic Europe or the fact that they liked wearing white wigs
> and
> > > breeches. Your conclusions about the <causes which effect a result are
> > > nothing more than wishful thinking.
> > >
> > > They did wish to escape the shackles as you describe....but one
cannot
> > > deny the religious convictions these men had and do you argue that a
> mans
> > > philosophy will lead his actions? My beliefs have lead me to certain
> > actions
> > > in my life.....just as yours have you, else why are we debating?
> >
> > No one is denying their religious convictions. Acknowledging that they
had
> > such
> > convictions doesn't mean that their greatness had anything to do with
> their
> > religion.
> > As I said, that's just your wishful thinking.
> >
> > > I wrote:
> > > The humanistic fantasy that you describe is flawed in its
> > > logic....simply because there cannot be people with-out philosophy
> > /religion
> > > / belief system.
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > > < There is no greater fantasy than that of mysticism. Have you
> been
> > at
> > > Adolph's smokes again?>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You have a right to that opinion (and it is a right I cherish as
> provided
> > by
> > > the "Bill Of Rights"). But if you deny that your opinion / belief is
> some
> > > how not a philosophy...then you are deceiving yourself.
> >
> > If you believe that I ever did deny it, then the deception is yours and
> just
> > another
> > example of your wishful thinking.
> >
> > <<You have a right to that opinion (and it is a right I cherish as
> provided
> > by
> > the "Bill Of Rights"). But if you deny that your opinion / belief is
some
> > how not a philosophy...then you are deceiving yourself. It's like
saying
> "I
> > don't think morals should be in the laws of our land", which is an
> > impossibility since a law will always reflect someone's morals (values).
> So
> > if it is true with-out exception that EVERYONE has a philosophy /
religion
> /
> > belief system ...... Then the "Perfect World" you allude too is what one
> > would
> > call an oxymoron. You paint a picture of a world with-out
religion...when
> > your
> > philosophy is a religion. You don't seek place of no religion...you seek
> > only ONE
> > religion. If everyone had the same belief system as you...I agree that
it
> > could be
> > peaceful. But I could make the same conclusion if everyone believed as
I,
> or
> > any number of other ways. Many wars have been fought trying to force
this
> > scenario.
> > Thank God our Founders had the wisdom to allow freedom of religion and
not
> > the
> > suppression of it.>>
> >
> > But they didn't. They burnt those who believed in witchcraft instead of
> > Christianity.
> > And ask the Sioux if they felt unsupressed and had freedom of religion.
> >
> > Are you in a state of denial?
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:36 PM
> > > Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> > >
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> > > > Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:17 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Here is what I wrote:
> > > > > "If you are implying that those who believe in God are
unwise...then
> > do
> > > > your
> > > > > homework, history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish."
> > > > >
> > > > > and you wrote:
> > > > > > What proof? Where's the proof?
> > > > >
> > > > > I gave you one example of James Madison being a very religious man
> and
> > > he
> > > > > was not unwise.
> > > >
> > > > So. you say that James Madison was a very religious man and that he
> was
> > > not
> > > > unwise.
> > > > That's very interesting and I don't dispute it that but I fail to
see
> > how
> > > > that proves your assertion that:
> > > > "history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish".
> > > >
> > > > > If you study Communism which basically IS a form of Huminisiam and
> you
> > > > will
> > > > > see the failure of it.
> > > >
> > > > It's mysticism. Sacrificing the self, be it for the state, deity or
> > > whatever
> > > > is mysticism.
> > > > Mysticism and humanism are mutually exclusive. so your statement
that:
> > > >
> > > > <<The humanistic view has been tried.....it always fails.>>
> > > >
> > > > Is incorrect. It has never failed because it has never been tried.
> > > >
> > > > > The United States became one of the greatest countries in
> > > > history....because
> > > > > of the vision and conviction of VERY religious men.
> > > >
> > > > You're not doing any jury work soon are you?.
> > > >
> > > > > All of the atrocities in history can
> > > > > be traced to Men in power who deceive others with there
philosophy,
> > > > > religion, mysticism, whatever term you wish to use....and you
> believe
> > > that
> > > > > the elimination of these will bring your Utopia.
> > > >
> > > > You answered your own question.
> > > > Without the mysticism that you accept must have existed, how would
> > > > they/could
> > > > they deceive others to commit the atrocities?
> > > >
> > > > > You would still have the evil of the man.
> > > >
> > > > Yes - but without the deceptive mysticism, they are impotent.
> > > > Their power to control and mobilize others to do their bidding is
> > > > eliminated.
> > > >
> > > > >> Look at history, all of the good things also came from someone
> else's
> > > > philosophy?>>
> > > >
> > > > You continually make blanket references to 'history' without seeing
> the
> > > > historically obvious
> > > > i.e. So did all the BAD things.
> > > >
> > > > >>(see above example)! >>
> > > >
> > > > I did. It wasn't a good one was it?
> > > >
> > > > > I believe in the God of our Forefathers whom wrote:
> > > > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men
are
> > > > created
> > > > > equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain
> unalienable
> > > > > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of
> > Happiness"
> > > >
> > > > The Creator may or may not exist but the Creator may have nothing to
> do
> > > with
> > > > your religion.
> > > > Your religion, may be man-made, fallacious and designed to deceive
as
> > you
> > > > mentioned earlier.
> > > >
> > > > > To enforce your belief would require that we couldn't even have
> this
> > > > > discussion.
> > > >
> > > > Who said anything about 'enforcing' my belief. It is mysticism that
is
> > > > enforced.
> > > > It isn't an accident that most children in India are Hindus, Muslims
> in
> > > Iran
> > > > and
> > > > Christians in the U.S. They don't freely choose those religions do
> they?
> > > >
> > > > > but because we live in a country that has the views of our
> > > > > Forefathers.....we can have this discussion in peace.
> > > >
> > > > These would be the same ones that had people burnt at the stake for
> > > > believing
> > > > in witchraft instead of having a peaceful discussion would it ?
> > > >
> > > > > It is these things (freedom of religion, freedom of speech,
freedom
> of
> > > the
> > > > > press, the right to bear arms, ect, ect..) that make this the best
> > > Country
> > > > > in the world.
> > > >
> > > > Yes it is. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There is no greater fantasy than that of mysticism.
> > > > Have you been at Adolph's smokes again?
> > > >
> > > > Rgds,
> > > >
> > > > Kim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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