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You wrote:
<That's very interesting and I don't dispute it that but I fail to see
how that proves your assertion that: "history will prove that the agnostic
view is foolish".
I can think of Joseph Stalin..who committed many crimes because he didn't
think he would ever answer to a higher authority than himself. How about our
neighbor in Cuba? Do you believe that he fears a higher authority than man?
History has many records of men who think THEY were the highest authority...
Caesar, Hitler.
A fanatic, believes he is doing something for a god, an atheist believes in
no god, a humanist believes man is god, and an agnostic only believes in
what he can see or rationalize. The fanatic is dangerous when mislead.....
but the last three can be equally dangerous, if their values are derived
from the self serving man/mankind is supreme view.
You Wrote:
<This is just YOU choosing to attribute their greatness to their religious
beliefs. It could just as easily be attributed to their desire to have all
men be considered <equal and to escape from the shackles of a
feudal/monarchic Europe or the fact that they liked wearing white wigs and
breeches. Your conclusions about the <causes which effect a result are
nothing more than wishful thinking.
They did wish to escape the shackles as you describe....but one cannot
deny the religious convictions these men had and do you argue that a mans
philosophy will lead his actions? My beliefs have lead me to certain actions
in my life.....just as yours have you, else why are we debating?
I wrote:
The humanistic fantasy that you describe is flawed in its
logic....simply because there cannot be people with-out philosophy /religion
/ belief system.
You wrote:
< There is no greater fantasy than that of mysticism. Have you been at
Adolph's smokes again?>
You have a right to that opinion (and it is a right I cherish as provided by
the "Bill Of Rights"). But if you deny that your opinion / belief is some
how not a philosophy...then you are deceiving yourself. It's like saying "I
don't think morals should be in the laws of our land", which is an
impossibility since a law will always reflect someone's morals (values). So
if it is true with-out exception that EVERYONE has a philosophy / religion /
belief system ...... Then the "Perfect
World" you allude too is what one would call an oxymoron. You paint a
picture of a world with-out religion...when your philosophy is a religion.
You don't seek
place of no religion...you seek only ONE religion. If everyone had the same
belief system as you...I agree that it could be peaceful. But I could make
the same conclusion if everyone believed as I, or any number of other ways.
Many wars have been fought trying to force this scenario. Thank God our
Founders had the wisdom to allow freedom of religion and not the suppression
of it. This allows the "Free Market of Ideas" to be presented..and gives us
the privilege to choose our own destiny.
What would happen to the consumer if we eliminated all the K-marts,
Wall-Marts, Targets, ect...... and only allowed one retail store to buy
from? Would the price improve for the consumer? How about the quality and
ingenuity of the products? It is the same in the market of ideas, and
philosophy. Expand the market to all the world, and the consumer will
prosper. The best ideas survive in a free market, while the others wither.
Peace,
Adam
----- Original Message -----
From: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
To: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:17 PM
> Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
>
>
> > Here is what I wrote:
> > "If you are implying that those who believe in God are unwise...then do
> your
> > homework, history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish."
> >
> > and you wrote:
> > > What proof? Where's the proof?
> >
> > I gave you one example of James Madison being a very religious man and
he
> > was not unwise.
>
> So. you say that James Madison was a very religious man and that he was
not
> unwise.
> That's very interesting and I don't dispute it that but I fail to see how
> that proves your assertion that:
> "history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish".
>
> > If you study Communism which basically IS a form of Huminisiam and you
> will
> > see the failure of it.
>
> It's mysticism. Sacrificing the self, be it for the state, deity or
whatever
> is mysticism.
> Mysticism and humanism are mutually exclusive. so your statement that:
>
> <<The humanistic view has been tried.....it always fails.>>
>
> Is incorrect. It has never failed because it has never been tried.
>
> > The United States became one of the greatest countries in
> history....because
> > of the vision and conviction of VERY religious men.
>
> You're not doing any jury work soon are you?.
>
> > All of the atrocities in history can
> > be traced to Men in power who deceive others with there philosophy,
> > religion, mysticism, whatever term you wish to use....and you believe
that
> > the elimination of these will bring your Utopia.
>
> You answered your own question.
> Without the mysticism that you accept must have existed, how would
> they/could
> they deceive others to commit the atrocities?
>
> > You would still have the evil of the man.
>
> Yes - but without the deceptive mysticism, they are impotent.
> Their power to control and mobilize others to do their bidding is
> eliminated.
>
> >> Look at history, all of the good things also came from someone else's
> philosophy?>>
>
> You continually make blanket references to 'history' without seeing the
> historically obvious
> i.e. So did all the BAD things.
>
> >>(see above example)! >>
>
> I did. It wasn't a good one was it?
>
> > I believe in the God of our Forefathers whom wrote:
> > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are
> created
> > equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
> > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
>
> The Creator may or may not exist but the Creator may have nothing to do
with
> your religion.
> Your religion, may be man-made, fallacious and designed to deceive as you
> mentioned earlier.
>
> > To enforce your belief would require that we couldn't even have this
> > discussion.
>
> Who said anything about 'enforcing' my belief. It is mysticism that is
> enforced.
> It isn't an accident that most children in India are Hindus, Muslims in
Iran
> and
> Christians in the U.S. They don't freely choose those religions do they?
>
> > but because we live in a country that has the views of our
> > Forefathers.....we can have this discussion in peace.
>
> These would be the same ones that had people burnt at the stake for
> believing
> in witchraft instead of having a peaceful discussion would it ?
>
> > It is these things (freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of
the
> > press, the right to bear arms, ect, ect..) that make this the best
Country
> > in the world.
>
> Yes it is. But that doesn't mean it's perfect.
>
>
>
> There is no greater fantasy than that of mysticism.
> Have you been at Adolph's smokes again?
>
> Rgds,
>
> Kim
>
>
>
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