|
PureBytes Links
Trading Reference Links
|
Here is what I wrote:
"If you are implying that those who believe in God are unwise...then do your
homework, history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish."
and you wrote:
> What proof? Where's the proof?
I gave you one example of James Madison being a very religious man and he
was not unwise.
If you study Communism which basically IS a form of Huminisiam and you will
see the failure of it.
Huminisiam can not abide in the "Utopia" that you describe, because of the
evil you fail to acknowledge....which is as long as there are men with
absolute power, they shall abuse others. In man abides this evil...and man
can not overcome it. Just look at the History books.....you blame it on the
mystic or doctrine.....I place the blame elsewhere. Do you think man doesn't
know that stealing is wrong? Do you think man doesn't know murder is wrong?
Yet man has done these things from the beginning, why? Eradicating
religion/philosophy will not stop these things, so the blame cannot be
placed there.
The United States became one of the greatest countries in history....because
of the vision and conviction of VERY religious men, they knew of the evil
of absolute power (that's why we have 3 branches of the government, and for
the Bill Of Rights, and ect, ect.....). All of the atrocities in history can
be traced to Men in power who deceive others with there philosophy,
religion, mysticism, whatever term you wish to use....and you believe that
the elimination of these will bring your Utopia.
You would still have the evil of the man. Look at history, all of the good
things also came from someone else's philosophy (see above example)! This
discussion is about YOUR philosophy.....there is no such thing as having a
philosophically free society. You believe man should be the highest belief
system. I believe in the God of our Forefathers whom wrote:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness"
To enforce your belief would require that we couldn't even have this
discussion (because I believe in God...my belief would need to be
eliminated), but because we live in a country that has the views of our
Forefathers.....we can have this discussion in peace.
It is these things (freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the
press, the right to bear arms, ect, ect..) that make this the best Country
in the world. The humanistic fantasy that you describe is flawed in its
logic.... simply because there cannot be people with-out philosophy /
religion / belief system.
Adam Hefner
----- Original Message -----
From: "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
To: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
> <<history will prove that the agnostic view is foolish.>>
>
> What proof? Where's the proof?
>
> <<The humanistic view has been tried.....it always fails.>>
>
> No. It hasn't. There has always been some form of mysticism. If it's not a
> religion, it's some other form of doctrine advocating the sacrifice of the
> self to another.
>
> <<If you think the eradication of religion is the answer.....again, I say
> look at the history books.>>
>
> I have - and what did I find? No period of mans' existence without
religion
> (mysticism by any other name). No period in man's existence without gross
> and horrific self destruction in the name of some irrational doctrine.
>
> There is nothing in history that has been more evil than this. Nothing
else
> is even close. In fact I can not think of any evil act committed by one
> group of people against another without some form of mysticism being at
the
> core. And history shows that the most atrocities have been committed in
the
> name of 'religious' mysticism. Which history books are you reading?
>
> <<When you say that Terrorism can be eradicated by the elimination of what
> you term as "mysticism", then you fail to understand what true evil is.>>
>
> How do you know that the eradication of mysticism is NOT the answer when
> it's never happened in the history of mankind?
> Are you sure that it isn't you that has failed to see the obvious and
> understand what true evil is?
>
> Rgds,
>
> Kim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adam Hefner" <vonhef@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <the_omega_man@xxxxxxxxxxxx>; "krf01" <krf01@xxxxxxxx>
> Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>; "BobR" <bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:51 PM
> Subject: Re: THE ANSWER
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > **
> > >
> > > What you find at the heart of any political fanaticism is mysticism:
an
> > irrational belief in a "higher power" (the state (fascism), a god
(Islam,
> > among others), "the working class" (communism), race (Nazism, among
> others),
> > etc.) Every barbarism in history has been justified by reference to
some
> > mystical higher power. The current barbarism is no different.
> > >
> > > As long as any value is placed above the value of free life itself, as
> > long as belief in mystical "higher powers" exists, there will be those
> > willing to give and take the lesser value (life) in order to obtain, or
> > achieve the success of, the "higher" (mystical) value. And as long as
> that
> > is the case, there will be "terrorism".
> > >
> > > Pull the weed of terrorism up by the roots? Turn "the offending
> > countries" into parking lots? Do you honestly believe that this will
stop
> > "terrorism"?
> > >
> > > Let us be clear: what we are discussing now does not have much to do
> with
> > obtaining justice. The 18 or so perpetrators of the terrible acts in
New
> > York and Washington are all dead. There is no more justice to be
obtained
> > from them. Everything being done now is either justice at the margins
> > (punishing accomplices and the like) or it is about preventing future
> > similar acts. So the important question is: how are such future acts
to
> be
> > prevented? I submit the following: you may kill as many people as you
> > wish, but you will not stop terrorism as long as mystical beliefs in
> "higher
> > powers" exist anywhere.
> > >
> > > To those of you who believe that terrorism can be eradicated by a
> military
> > campaign I ask: How do you plan to find every person who is willing to
> give
> > his life (and take yours) for some "higher power"? Are you able to read
> the
> > minds of everyone on earth? Are you under the illusion that such people
> > live only in "foreign" countries? Do you believe that Islam is the only
> > mystical fanaticism that exists?
> > >
> > > So what is the answer? Increased security at airports? Will
increased
> > security prevent the boarding of martial artists who kill without
weapons?
> > More prayer vigils and remembrance services (fighting mysticism with
> > mysticism)? Singing patriotic or religious songs? Perhaps we should
> light
> > some more candles? Who's for bringing back the yellow ribbons from the
> > Carter years?
> > >
> > > No, the answer does not lie in Proverbs or in any of the above empty
> > gestures. The answer lies in reason. When reason trounces mysticism,
> when
> > ALL mysticism is seen for what it is, anti-life, only then will we have
> the
> > real weed by its roots.
> > >
> > >
> > > The Omega Man
> >
> >
> > If you study the Founding Fathers of the USA.....they were very
religious
> > and highly educated men. You write:
> >
> > "No, the answer does not lie in Proverbs or in any of the
> above
> > empty gestures. The answer lies in reason. When reason trounces
> mysticism,
> > when
> > ALL mysticism is seen for what it is, anti-life, only
then
> > will we have the real weed by its roots."
> >
> > Such statements would have been against everything James Madison spent
his
> > life for! James Madison is called the "Father of our Constitution" and
the
> > US Bill of Rights guarantees these individual liberties. If you are
> implying
> > that those who believe in God are unwise...then do your homework,
history
> > will prove that the agnostic view is foolish. When you say that
Terrorism
> > can be eradicated by the elimination of what you term as "mysticism",
then
> > you fail to understand what true evil is. The humanistic view has been
> > tried.....it always fails. If you think the eradication of religion is
the
> > answer.....again, I say look at the history books.
> > Sounds like you and Bob have been watching Spock together?
> > Adam Hefner
> >
> >
> >
>
>
|