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I don't want to put words in Jose's mouth, but using zig zag was on his list of things never to do. I think the problem would tend to be rather intractable. His view was you'd be bound to get signals you couldn't really use, and in backtests, results that were too good to be believed. That would appear to suggest something that is fundamentally flawed at the outset.
--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Doji <dojistarbullish@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Doji <dojistarbullish@xxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock Group] MS 11 Pro with ZIGZAG in indicators
> To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 11:38 PM
> even then zig will zag you.
>
> superfragalist wrote:
> >
> > I wasn't talking about testing as in back test
> results. I was
> > referring to testing to count phantom signals and plot
> distortion to
> > determine the degree to which they might impact back
> test results.
> >
> > However, there doesn't seem to be any need to post any
> of the info
> > from those tests since the issue has been totally
> resolved.
> >
> > Super
> >
> > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>, "mr.
> bryan mccormick"
> > <deepfoobar@xxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > This from Jose, on the main failures of
> mechanical systems:
> > >
> > > "You use an indicator which uses future periods
> to determine its
> > value (zig zag indicator is a perfect example)"
> > >
> > > That would make anything based on this suspect at
> best, and likely
> > to produce results that are too good to be true.
> > >
> > > Simple.
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 11/25/09, Doji
> <dojistarbullish@xxx> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Doji <dojistarbullish@xxx>
> > > > Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock Group] Re: MS
> 11 Pro with ZIGZAG in
> > indicators
> > > > To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 3:37 PM
> > > > All the adaptive indicators in MS11
> > > > use the ZIG function. Zig is
> > > > forward-look and backtested results using it
> are not valid
> > > > for trading
> > > > purpose.
> > > > Simple.
> > > >
> > > > pumrysh wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bryan,
> > > > >
> > > > > Discussions about the dynamic nature of
> the zig-zag
> > > > and their cousin
> > > > > peak and trough indicators have gone on
> in this and
> > > > other forums for
> > > > > years. Most people decided to drop
> their use at that
> > > > point in favor of
> > > > > indicators that were valid and could be
> used in real
> > > > life trading.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any indicator or system developed using
> these dynamic
> > > > indicators
> > > > > should be openly identified so that you
> can make an
> > > > informed decision
> > > > > about your technical analysis tools.
> > > > >
> > > > > Spyros Raftopoulos did produce a set of
> indicators
> > > > that were somewhat
> > > > > usable back in 2002 but even his work
> required
> > > > validation which he
> > > > > openly admitted. A great deal of that
> work was
> > > > conducted on the "old"
> > > > > Yahoo MetastockUsers group and there
> were a number of
> > > > experts who
> > > > > weighed in on the problem at the time.
> As I remember
> > > > Jose(no longer a
> > > > > member here) was only one of them.
> Others were Roy
> > > > Larsen and Henry
> > > > > Kaczmarczyk. Spyros went on to publish
> his work in
> > > > TASC. You can find
> > > > > some files about this in our files
> section.
> > > > >
> > > > > As for Thomas' statement that MS11
> indicators use the
> > > > zig indicator, I
> > > > > cannot verify this. Joo Seng did point
> out earlier
> > > > that All
> > > > > "MS11-Adaptive xxx" indicators use the
> Cycle method
> > > > and are based on
> > > > > the zig zag. It should be a simple task
> to verify this
> > > > yourself unless
> > > > > the indicators are password protected.
> I would also
> > > > think that Equis
> > > > > would be upfront about the disclosure
> if it were the
> > > > case.
> > > > >
> > > > > Realize also that Thomas did mention
> his use of
> > > > "adaptive" indicators
> > > > > and as Super has pointed out the
> question is what are
> > > > these indicators
> > > > > adaptive to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps,
> > > > >
> > > > > Preston
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>, "mr.
> > > > bryan mccormick"
> > > > > <deepfoobar@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wow. Well if this is true, I am
> not sure what use
> > > > they could be. A
> > > > > zig-zag is a backward looking
> indicator. As many
> > > > people have written
> > > > > in the past, not the least of them Jose
> Silva, systems
> > > > based on
> > > > > zig-zag will give nonsense results
> because of this
> > > > backwards look. I
> > > > > am not sure if Jose is still active.
> Perhaps I have
> > > > this wrong. He
> > > > > would be the correct person to
> comment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Tue, 11/24/09, joo seng
> > > > <jooseng6@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: joo seng <jooseng6@>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [EquisMetaStock
> Group] Re: MS 11 Pro
> > > > with ZIGZAG in
> > > > > indicators
> > > > > > To: equismetastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> > <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > > >
> <mailto:equismetastock%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009,
> 1:00 PM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Â
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All "MS11-Adaptive xxx" indicators
> using Cycle
> > > > method are based on
> > > > > zig zag.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Wed, 25/11/09,
> superfragalist
> > > > <no_reply@xxxxxxxxxx s.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From: superfragalist
> <no_reply@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > > s.com>
> > > > > > Subject: [EquisMetaStock Group]
> Re: MS 11 Pro
> > > > with ZIGZAG in indicators
> > > > > > To: equismetastock@ yahoogroups.
> com
> > > > > > Date: Wednesday, 25 November,
> 2009, 1:19 AM
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Â
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've looked at the formula's for
> most of the
> > > > indicators and I don't
> > > > > recall any of them being based on zig
> zag formulas.
> > > > Maybe I missed one.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They have prev statements in them
> which slow them
> > > > down to the point
> > > > > where they have limited use, especially
> on intraday
> > > > charts, but that's
> > > > > about it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How an adaptive indicator performs
> is based on
> > > > what it is adapting
> > > > > too? Volatility, moving averages, money
> flow, etc.
> > > > There are many ways
> > > > > to program adaptive indicators.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Super
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In equismetastock@
> yahoogroups. com,
> > > > "thomas12ng" <thomas12ng@
> > > > > ...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am surprise that the recent
> development in
> > > > metastock 11 is
> > > > > somewhat twisted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > After reviewing the indicator
> builder
> > > > components (where all names
> > > > > start with MS11 ; they must contain
> ZIGZAG parameter
> > > > as their
> > > > > proprietary arrangement. ) I feel sad
> about this set
> > > > back. Mainly with
> > > > > the indicator quality. I have monitored
> a few
> > > > hypothetical porfolio
> > > > > which system build based on these
> compenent vs. my own
> > > > indicator from
> > > > > a reliable "adaptive" indicator. The
> result is totally
> > > > very very bad.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I truly have no idea who was
> the genius
> > > > author behind these
> > > > > repaint indicator.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just a quick suggestion: to
> those who try to
> > > > develop system as
> > > > > based on MS11 custom indicator just
> abandon it!!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New Email names for you!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Get the Email name you've always
> wanted on the
> > > > new @ymail and
> > > > > @rocketmail.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hurry before someone else does!
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32
> Antivirus,
> > > > version of virus
> > > > > signature database 4632 (20091124)
> __________
> > > > >
> > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32
> Antivirus.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32
> Antivirus, version
> > > > of virus signature database 4632 (20091124)
> __________
> > > >
> > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32
> Antivirus.
> > > >
> > > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > equismetastock-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> >
> <mailto:equismetastock-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus,
> version of virus
> > signature database 4632 (20091124) __________
> >
> > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
> >
> > http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version
> of virus signature database 4632 (20091124) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> equismetastock-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>
>
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