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JO
You said it much more eloquently than me. Thank you.
Just to stick up for Gann a little and to continue the smoke analogy. Gann
was quite a mathematician. The star alignment thing may have been smoke and
mirrors!
Regards Martin
----- Original Message -----
From: "manohohman" <kelols@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: November 22, 2003 11:11 PM
Subject: [Metastockusers] Re: Martin B and Ariel on Whinning
> Your post is interesting and it's a view point I hear often. I have
> traded stocks using both fundemental analysis and technical analysis.
> I find a combination is the best way to make money in the long run.
>
> The approach a successful trader takes is to design his trading
> business around his personality and emotinoal make-up as opposed to
> designing it based on what's most profitable or the "best"
> indicators. I see that post on this site all the time usually in form
> of the lame question. "Let's do a poll and find out what everybody's
> favorite indicators are". That's a ridiculous question. It's like
> trying to decide what color to wear based on everybody else's
> favorite color.
>
> I have not met a single person who could not learn to improve the
> return on their investments by using simple moving averages so they
> know when to buy and when to sell. That's TA.
>
> The thing that's really interesting is that there are very few
> systems that beat moving averages. According to Robert Colby the
> author of The Encyclopedia of Technical Market Indicators, the bible
> of backtesting, a simple moving average system out performed by and
> hold since 1928 by 51,712,052% Yeah, it's 52 million percent better
> than buy and hold. That's 10s of billions more in profit with a
> capital B. Of course that doesn't include taxes, commissions and rake
> off by crooks. After that, you would only have $1.98 left, but hey,
> it's money.
>
> Too many people like to make things complex. Just look at Gann
> theory. Gann based his work on Indian astrology and star alignment,
> yet there are thousands of people who think trading with Gann gives
> them an edge. Well, you could call Miss Cleo on the psychic hotline
> and get better stock picks. Random Walk theory has taught us
> that. "But Gann is so complicated, it must work." Yeah, it does, and
> it slices, dices and cuts julian fries too.
>
> You are right that a person doesn't have to know how to program a
> thing in MS to make money. None of the sytems I use require one line
> of code--not one. I've automated some processes for convience, but
> after testing over 500 indicators and more than 200 experts nothing
> has beat the simple stuff I use. I'm finishing up the testing of many
> formulas from Colby's book and still nothing is performing better.
>
> However, I disagree about reading the manual. You don't have to sit
> down and read it front to back but you need to learn to use your
> tools. A lot of people won't lift a finger to educate themselves.
> They think it should all be handed to them on a platter. Ariel got it
> right. If they won't read the manual they have no business trying to
> trade for a living. The highest probability is they're going to lose
> their capital and it's back to 7-11.
>
> Some people are lucky in that trading success has nothing to do with
> brains. That's been proven over and over, but it does have a lot to
> do with laziness. Intellectually lazy people fail at this business. I
> didn't say IQ was the issue. I said how much you are willing to use
> the IQ you have is the issue. I have made suggestions to people
> regarding what books to read. They read them, and then I have to
> explain it to them three or four times, they read the book again, I
> explain it again, and the next thing you know they're making money.
> What a surprise! Am I upset I have to repeat my explanations more
> than once. No, because they're doing their part.
>
> Of course, I recommend the same material to other people who never
> read it, continue to ask the same questions everyday and can't
> understand why their capital account is shrinking. I've got a couple
> of clues.
>
> Ariel gave some of the best trading advice I've read on here. It's
> too bad more people don't get it.
>
> Now that being said, I started in TA 30 years ago writing computer
> programs for finance professors who were looking for the grail. They
> thought computers were going to do it for them. Then came complex
> geometry, neural nets, chaos theory and fractals. Oh well, those
> moving averages aren't looking for a place to hide. They know who
> will still be around next year.
>
> You are right also in that some people are trying to predict the
> direction of the smoke. I use the smoke to keep me out of the fire. I
> can read it well enough to do that. I can also tell where not to
> stand to keep from choking.
>
> That has made me more money than all of my finance professors put
> together, and that's good enough for me.
>
> If you can see what's right in front of you, you are one of the few.
> I hope you are using that to your advantage. Some people are too lazy
> to clean their glasses so they too can see.
>
> Whatever works! I think that's what you said. Good post.
>
> JO
>
>
> --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Martin Blain" <martin@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > If I can weigh in again here. Does all the quantifying of trading
> stocks really pay off?
> > I compare it to analyzing a plume of smoke and saying " well if
> this happens then I will do this and if that doesn't work I will bail
> out here. The hardest part of this ( and maybe the easiest to a
> person smarter than me) is to explain why you cant quantify something
> that is basically random. Now don't get me wrong I didn't say you
> cant use TA. I just don't believe that you can use the systems in
> MS. All this code and crap is just "something to aspire to" all the
> while the information is right in front of you if you can see it. So
> if you don't need the crap built in than don't waste your time
> reading the manual!
> > Regards Martin B
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ariel Devulsky
> > To: Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: November 22, 2003 3:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Metastockusers] Re: Group benefits and Whining
> >
> >
> > Why not send the rules list or create rules and send to new
> menbers?
> >
> >
> >
> > Read The Fuckinī Manual!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: manohohman
> > To: Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2003 3:40 PM
> > Subject: [Metastockusers] Re: Group benefits and Whining
> >
> >
> > Kevin, I agree completely with Martin's post. On this site and
> the
> > other Metastock site there are too many people who won't bother
> to
> > look in the manual or use the help screen and it's not because
> they
> > don't think to do it, they just don't want to "think" period.
> >
> > In addition, a lot of people think everything should be "free"
> and if
> > it's not, they'll try to find some place to steal it from.
> These
> > people want to be "traders". If you're willing to lose your
> capital
> > account but spend nothing on your education, you're not a
> trader,
> > you're a moron.
> >
> > I post on this and the other site constantly. I get a lot of
> email
> > wanting questions answered, or my entire trading system, or
> help
> > learning to trade, or emails that are filled with general
> insults.
> >
> > They all want "free" help, but the help isn't free. It costs me
> a lot
> > of time and my time is valuable. Ninety percent of the people
> who are
> > asking me for stuff don't treat my time like it's valuable. In
> fact,
> > if I tell them in a polite way that I can't help them learn to
> trade,
> > or I'm not going to give away my systems unless they have
> something
> > to share, I usually get a terse response implying something
> nasty
> > about my character.
> >
> > Many of the emails I receive act as if they have a right to
> answers
> > because this is a MS support group. That's BS. Kevin, you are
> right,
> > no one has to answer any body's question. I've made the mistake
> of
> > answering some that I should have skipped, and I wound up
> paying for
> > it.
> >
> > I would appreciate it if you would do what I've been doing.
> Start
> > posting all kinds of references, indicator code, systems code,
> > answering people's programming problems, etc. and then you'll
> get to
> > see what I've been seeing everyday, and you won't like it.
> >
> > Martin may not have been eloquent, but he was right. Newbie's
> get
> > pissed off when I, or someone else, tell them to read the
> manual or
> > use the help screen. They fire back a nasty email saying they
> tried
> > to read the manual but what they want to know is not in there.
> Huffy,
> > huffy, huffy. In addition to my career, I spent 30 years as a
> college
> > professor at 4 different universities. In the last ten years,
> I've
> > seen the same thing. Students don't want to bother reading
> anything,
> > or researching to find their own answers. I'm suppose to tell
> them
> > everything they need to know, and I should never ask them a
> question
> > on an exam I didn't tell them the answer too! Well here's an
> answer.
> > Get off your lazy ass, put your brain in gear, or learn to
> say "Would
> > you like that supersized," sir?
> >
> > I wonder how these people think I learned to program, or where
> all
> > the references I post come from. I guess I just woke up with
> them on
> > my pillow. I worked 17 hours yesterday. Six hours trading, and
> eleven
> > hours testing equations I found in reference books. In a few
> days
> > I'll get tons of requests wanting me to tell them what I found
> so
> > they don't have to spend 11 hours themselves. Some of what I
> learned
> > I might share, and some of it I won't. Whatever I choose to
> share is
> > a gift.
> >
> > Sure there are some great people on here, and on the other
> board. I
> > correspond with some of them. We exchange ideas, code and
> systems. WE
> > EXCHANGE!
> >
> > Everytime I've asked anyone on here to share their systems or
> code,
> > even if it isn't good, they decline. Surprise, surprise,
> surprise.
> > Their work is too important, or secret, to share.
> >
> > I've done a number of postings lately trying to elevate the
> amount of
> > discussion, references, sharing, and exchanging that goes on on
> this
> > board, and the other one, so the board is not merely a forum
> for
> > people who can't read.
> >
> > There has been a slight increase in the amount of sharing but
> it's
> > not nearly where it should be.
> >
> > I'll keep posting as long as I feel I have the time and energy,
> but
> > I'm also going to speak my mind about some of the garbage that
> goes
> > on. It mostly falls on deaf years I know, but that's okay
> because
> > I've given away enough that once in-a-while I get to whine.
> >
> > JO
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Metastockusers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Kevin <kevin_barry@xxxx>
> wrote:
> > > Hello Martin,
> > >
> > > I think that your posting is a little unfair. I am not sure
> if you
> > are
> > > referring to any group members in particular but I must say
> that no
> > > postings on this forum in recent times have evoked anything
> close
> > to a
> > > similar reaction in me. Sure, there are often questions
> posted that
> > could
> > > be answered by looking in the respective manual but, in my
> > experience, not
> > > everybody automatically thinks of doing that. Indeed, the
> > apparently
> > > obvious questions are sometimes quite thought-provoking and,
> > personally
> > > speaking, I have got answers here to questions that I would
> never
> > even have
> > > thought of asking.
> > >
> > > There is no obligation to respond to any posting and the
> nature of
> > the post
> > > is more often than not pretty obvious immediately. So, if it
> is
> > going to be
> > > an irritation to you, why not just delete it immediately?
> What
> > impresses me
> > > are the regular contributors who are quick to respond to
> pleas for
> > help,
> > > however simple or stupid, and are extremely generous with
> their
> > knowledge
> > > and experience. Without the questions, the rest of us might
> never
> > get to
> > > hear these guys speak.
> > >
> > > I also get the impression that you are a little contemptuous
> of
> > people who
> > > seem to be asking for something for nothing. Personally, I am
> in
> > complete
> > > agreement with what I think that you are saying, i.e. if one
> uses
> > tools in
> > > order to make money then those tools should be paid for.
> However,
> > you may
> > > not realise that, in addition to people who trade
> professionally or
> > > part-time, there are many people who are attracted to the
> idea of
> > trading
> > > and enjoy associating with the trading community, hobby-
> traders if
> > you
> > > like, who do not actually trade. There is a chap who attends
> my
> > investment
> > > club meetings who has an in-depth knowledge of the market and
> is an
> > expert
> > > in several trading techniques. He occasionally lectures on
> various
> > subjects
> > > and he is actually pretty good at it. He has never placed a
> trade
> > in his
> > > life. Do I begrudge him collecting a bit of free software,
> > downloading free
> > > end-of-day prices and playing around with them in his spare
> time?
> > No. As
> > > far as I can see, people like him are doing none of us any
> harm
> > whatsoever.
> > >
> > > A forum such as this needs lots of input at all levels in
> order to
> > stay
> > > alive. I sincerely hope that nobody is ever reluctant to post
> > because they
> > > think that their contribution may not be worthy.
> > >
> > > Viva la difference.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Kevin
> > >
> > > At 12:29 22/11/2003 +0000, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > >Hi folks,
> > > >
> > > >in my opinion to share is just fair. Everyone that is a
> member of
> > > >this group should try to contribute to the benefits of the
> whole
> > > >group, not just ask (simple and stupid stuff) and take. This
> doen't
> > > >not mean that a newbie shouldn't post his or her questions.
> But
> > what
> > > >about first trying to solve the problem by yourself and show
> the
> > > >group the results of this effort and then ask the question.
> > > >
> > > >But now FREE - for all of you not wanting to share and just
> begging
> > > >for 'free stuff':
> > > >
> > > >John Slauson from Adaptick is giving away for free
> > > >
> > > >Adaptick Trend Index
> > > >Adaptick Pivot Volume indicator
> > > >Adaptick Volume Acceleration Index
> > > >17-page Adobe PDF Manual for reference and intepretation
> > > >
> > > >http://www.adaptick.com/3-pack/index.html
> > > >
> > > >pretty useful and - did I mention it - free (you dont have to
> > > >contribute ;-)!
> > > >
> > > >Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > >Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
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> > Metastockusers-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
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> >
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