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[amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary' trading...



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> what I would like to see... a buy/sell 
> tear off button 

Stops etc could be coded as per the BackTester.

Click to sell or cover would over-ride code.

Stops etc could also be set via studies on the chart ... green line 
for profit stop (when bullish) and red line for stop loss (when 
bullish).

Sell/cover click overides code and studies.
Studies over ride code.

(Maybe a GUI window would be needed as the 'LiveTester' settings 
panel (choose colours and type of studies to use).

brian_z

--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx> wrote:
>
> 
> > How far would we want this 'simulated chart trading' facility to
> > extend...? Would they just be 'at market' buys and sells...? 
Would 
> >you
> > be able to place stops for each trade based off the chart too...? 
> >Are
> > we talking about placing this information on the chart in replay 
> >mode
> > so that we are simulating being at the RHS of the chart...?
> 
> Good questions.
> 
> I am sure others can do better than me (I think Herman is a way 
ahead 
> of us on this).
> 
> My opinion....as a minimum.... what I would like to see... a 
buy/sell 
> tear off button ... like my trading platform ....click to action... 
> trades are recorded ... a 'LiveTest' summary/report is available, 
> with metrics, the same as a 'BackTest' report....... reports are 
> saved for later use via Report Explorer.
> 
> Using that model, the live tester, would reference the 'BackTester' 
> settings e.g. for initial equity and other relevant settings.
> 
> The 'LiveTester' report could be accessed via AA after the session.
> 
> I guess we would need to pause/continue a session by choice.
> 
> That is the minimalist model (most bang for the buck?).
> 
> Why stop there?
> 
> Herman has been talking about a fully blown chart trading approach.
> 
> I am not sure exactly what his approach entails but he is 
definitely 
> a Chart Trader AND a programmed rules Trader so the scope seems to 
be 
> there to put it all together in one feature.
> 
> 
> brian_z
> 
> 
> 
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > I agree Mike in that I don't yet see the WFA angle here. Perhaps 
> Allan
> > could expand on this.
> > 
> > However, I do see the value in being able to breakdown daily
> > 'discretionary portfolio returns & risk' (whether it's genuinely a
> > portfolio or one instrument) into the usual analysis metrics.
> > 
> > How far would we want this 'simulated chart trading' facility to
> > extend...? Would they just be 'at market' buys and sells...? 
Would 
> you
> > be able to place stops for each trade based off the chart too...? 
> Are
> > we talking about placing this information on the chart in replay 
> mode
> > so that we are simulating being at the RHS of the chart...?
> > 
> > 
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I can certainly see the value in calculating a full suite of 
> metrics 
> > > based on the discretionary trades made via clicking on a chart 
> over a 
> > > given time period. These would be the equivalent of a 
mechanical 
> > > trader's backtest results and would be the benchmark by which 
> > > approaches were measured.
> > > 
> > > But, how exactly would a discretionary trader perform a WFA 
given 
> > > that WFA is the application of optimized parameters upon 
untested 
> > > data?
> > > 
> > > I doubt that you are suggesting that the discretionary trader 
> would 
> > > manually iterate over the same chart trying different 
approaches, 
> and 
> > > that AB (or any other product) would then have to somehow 
figure 
> out 
> > > what the methodology was in order to apply that logic into the 
> next 
> > > out of sample period. Yet, that would be the only way to marry 
> the 
> > > two concepts (i.e. discretionary and WFA).
> > > 
> > > Even if the software did have some kind of artificial 
> intelligence 
> > > that could capture logic based on the discretionary trades made 
> > > within a period, what would be the point? The discretionary 
> trader 
> > > would not confine themself to the signals produced by the WFA. 
If 
> > > they did, they would no longer be discretionary, but instead be 
> > > mechanical traders :)
> > > 
> > > It seems to me that WFA is the exact opposite of discretionary 
> > > trading.
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > > 
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@> 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Sidhartha,
> > > > No offense to anyone,but it is a bit of a messy solution and 
> one 
> > > that 
> > > > is good enough to make one dangerous.
> > > > 
> > > > It certainly appears that a skilled programmer could make the 
> > > > necessary changes to bring it to a professional level,but I 
am 
> > > > certainly not that person.
> > > > 
> > > > IMHO,whether one is a discretionary trader or system 
trader,the 
> > > > ability to perform some sort on WFA is essential,and the very 
> same 
> > > > analytics/statistics should be available to both styles.
> > > > 
> > > > Does anyone think the discretionary traders at firms such as 
> SAC 
> > > > capital simply wing it,while the stat arb boys have all the 
> > > > firepower??
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" 
<sidhartha70@> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I took a look at Herman's thread Mike and I personally 
think 
> it's 
> > > a
> > > > > bit of a messy solution to what Allan is requesting. 
> Basically he
> > > > > wants something of 'professional' quality rather than 
tacked 
> on.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@> 
wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your comment on simulated discretionary trading was 
> addressed 
> > > > earlier 
> > > > > > in the thread by Herman, though perhaps not to the degree 
> of 
> > > > backtest 
> > > > > > metrics that you might be after.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/message/128437
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" 
<allansn@> 
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi T,
> > > > > > >    As a discretionary trader,I find the charting 
package 
> in 
> > > Ami 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > be 
> > > > > > > excellent.The only gripe I have is that one can not 
shift 
> to 
> > > > higher 
> > > > > > > time frames(daily to weekly) without the chart and 
> trendlines 
> > > > > > jumping 
> > > > > > > all over the place,i.e.,from one date to the 
next.Without 
> > > > having 
> > > > > > the 
> > > > > > > end dates locked(far right dates),multiple time frame 
> > > analysis 
> > > > > > > becomes a very difficult task,and analysis is rendered 
> > > > useless.Its 
> > > > > > > essential that the far right side of the chart have the 
> same 
> > > > date 
> > > > > > on 
> > > > > > > any time frame.I discussed it in the past,but you had 
> your 
> > > own 
> > > > > > > views.Sadly,I had to go to another program.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On another note,and far more important, a discretionary 
> > > trader 
> > > > > > needs 
> > > > > > > the same risk management tools that a system trader 
> does.The 
> > > > two 
> > > > > > > styles are not so disimilar that a system trader has 
the 
> > > > benefit of 
> > > > > > > full backtesting/optimisation/WFA while the 
discretionary 
> > > > trader 
> > > > > > > should be  left to perform his analysis with a 
> pencil,paper 
> > > and 
> > > > > > > abacus.Ami should offer the capability to SIMULATE 
> > > > discretionary 
> > > > > > > trading.That means the ability to point and click on 
the 
> > > chart 
> > > > and 
> > > > > > > record all Entrys(long and short),Exits,and stops with 
> > > > > > > pyramiding/scaling capabilities.In addition full 
> reporting 
> > > > should 
> > > > > > be 
> > > > > > > available with a scaled down version of backtest 
results 
> as 
> > > > well as 
> > > > > > > the capability to export the trades should one wish to 
do 
> > > > perform 
> > > > > > > further analysis,i.e position sizing,Money management.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Unless one is performing algorithmic trading/mean 
> reversion 
> > > > > > > strategies,I think there is a fine line between rule 
> based 
> > > > trading 
> > > > > > vs 
> > > > > > > discretionary.Granted the approachs are different,but 
> once a 
> > > > trade 
> > > > > > is 
> > > > > > > on,one still has to manage it with the very best tools 
> > > > > > > available.Hopefully,Ami can level the playing field 
> between 
> > > the 
> > > > > > > system "tools" vs the "discretionary" tools avaiable.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Allan
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Allan
> > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" 
> <groups@> 
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I appreciate all suggestions and there is really no 
> problem
> > > > > > > > in adding new features provided that there is demand 
> for 
> > > them.
> > > > > > > > I specifically asked for charting suggestions, as 
this 
> is 
> > > way
> > > > > > > > more "subjective" thing than backtesting and other 
rule-
> > > based 
> > > > > > tools.
> > > > > > > > Discretionary traders seem to be very sensitive to 
all 
> those
> > > > > > > > little details and aesthetics. These are are 
sometimes 
> easy 
> > > > to 
> > > > > > > develop
> > > > > > > > sometimes not, but unless you hear the feedback it is 
> not 
> > > > possible
> > > > > > > > to know what every single person uses. 
> > > > > > > > So again, feedback is appreciated. If possible and 
not 
> too 
> > > > time 
> > > > > > > consuming
> > > > > > > > for you, I greatly appreciate filling the issue via 
> > > feedback 
> > > > > > > center. If not,
> > > > > > > > I can keep track on my internal list.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > > > Tomasz Janeczko
> > > > > > > > amibroker.com
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > > > > > From: "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> > > > > > > > To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:30 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' 
> > > versus 'Discretionary' 
> > > > > > > trading...
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > How97,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I agree. You've stated nothing that I haven't 
already.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I do use other software... MarketDelta & have been 
> > > looking 
> > > > at 
> > > > > > > Ninja
> > > > > > > > > with a market profile plug in as an alternative.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Like others, I'm not desperately keen on using 
> multiple 
> > > > software
> > > > > > > > > systems. I'd rather try and get it under one roof. 
> And 
> > > the 
> > > > > > truth 
> > > > > > > is it
> > > > > > > > > really wouldn't be hard for TJ to add some of that 
> > > > > > functionality.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I'm adding my voice to a largely dominant rule 
based 
> > > > crowd... I 
> > > > > > > hope
> > > > > > > > > you're ok with free expression of wishes and 
> ideas...??
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I think others have also made it clear on this 
thread 
> > > that 
> > > > > > they'd 
> > > > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > to see some more functionality on the charting side 
> too.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "how97" 
> <101.158294@> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> I believe it is clear that the large majority of 
the 
> AB 
> > > > users 
> > > > > > > want 
> > > > > > > > >> to have the possibility for rule-based trading, 
> > > > backtesting, 
> > > > > > > > >> automatic analysis, automatic trading etc. For 
that 
> > > group 
> > > > > > > Amibroker 
> > > > > > > > >> is just excellent and it is constantly enhanced in 
> these 
> > > > > > > > >> possibilities. And that is what the large majority 
> of 
> > > its 
> > > > > > users 
> > > > > > > > >> wants. And AB strongly supported by its users and 
> driven 
> > > > by 
> > > > > > > their 
> > > > > > > > >> wishes.
> > > > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > > >> The large majority of users is clearly not the 
> > > > discretionary 
> > > > > > > > >> traders. These may need better or specialized 
> charting. 
> > > > That 
> > > > > > may 
> > > > > > > > >> well be. If this better charting software exists 
> already 
> > > > as 
> > > > > > you 
> > > > > > > are 
> > > > > > > > >> saying, why are you not using it, why did you come 
> here 
> > > to 
> > > > AB? 
> > > > > > > What 
> > > > > > > > >> were you looking for? 
> > > > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > > >> I think it is also a clear preference of Tomasz to 
> > > develop 
> > > > AB 
> > > > > > > into a 
> > > > > > > > >> direction where most of its users wants to ahve 
it. 
> And 
> > > > that 
> > > > > > is 
> > > > > > > > >> good. A lot of the stuff in AB is much too complex 
> if 
> > > you 
> > > > are 
> > > > > > > just 
> > > > > > > > >> looking for other kinds of charting. So why 
bother? 
> You 
> > > > need 
> > > > > > to 
> > > > > > > use 
> > > > > > > > >> a different software. 
> > > > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > > >> By the way: In my opinion AB allows excellent 
> charting.
> > > > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > > >> Regards
> > > > > > > > >> how97
> > > > > > > > >> 
> > > > > > > > >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" 
> > > > <sidhartha70@> 
> > > > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >> > From my perspective, and this is really why I 
> > > connected 
> > > > > > > charting to
> > > > > > > > >> > the ideas of 'rule based' vs 'discretionary' 
> > > trading... 
> > > > if 
> > > > > > you 
> > > > > > > are 
> > > > > > > > >> a
> > > > > > > > >> > discretionary trader, from a software 
perspective 
> it 
> > > is 
> > > > ALL 
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > >> > visibility. If the software you are using 
doesn't 
> or 
> > > > can't 
> > > > > > > give you
> > > > > > > > >> > the best visibility available then you are at a 
> > > > > > disadvanatge. 
> > > > > > > You
> > > > > > > > >> > can't make sensible discretionary trading 
> decisions 
> > > > without 
> > > > > > > being 
> > > > > > > > >> able
> > > > > > > > >> > to see how current market structure has evolved, 
> what 
> > > > market 
> > > > > > > > >> dynamics
> > > > > > > > >> > are at play, how the auction process is evolving 
> at 
> > > > > > different 
> > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > >> > frames etc..etc.. You simply don't get that from 
> bar & 
> > > > > > candle 
> > > > > > > > >> charts.
> > > > > > > > >> > 
> > > > > > > > >> > Hence my obsession with Market Profile & 
> Equivolume 
> > > and 
> > > > > > > generally 
> > > > > > > > >> more
> > > > > > > > >> > accessability and adaptability to AmiBroker's 
> charting 
> > > > > > > facilicites.
> > > > > > > > >> > 
> > > > > > > > >> > Currently it's a fabulous piece of software, 
> > > > particualrly 
> > > > > > > for 'rule
> > > > > > > > >> > based' traders.... But probably a less fabulous 
> piece 
> > > of 
> > > > > > > software 
> > > > > > > > >> for
> > > > > > > > >> > discretionary day traders for example. But of 
> course, 
> > > I 
> > > > > > > appreciate,
> > > > > > > > >> > it's hard to be all things to all men...
> > > > > > > > >> > 
> > > > > > > > >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Close 
> > > <ken45140@> 
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> > > One simple suggestion for charting improvement:
> > > > > > > > >> > > 
> > > > > > > > >> > > Put in the ability to insert a "Tab" character 
> in a 
> > > > Title 
> > > > > > > > >> statement
> > > > > > > > >> > in order
> > > > > > > > >> > > to make it easier to produce multi-line tables 
> > > > > > > with "columns" 
> > > > > > > > >> left
> > > > > > > > >> > justified
> > > > > > > > >> > > no matter how many decimal places in previous 
> values 
> > > > in 
> > > > > > the 
> > > > > > > same 
> > > > > > > > >> row.  I
> > > > > > > > >> > > have done it via complex IIF statements but 
how 
> nice 
> > > > it 
> > > > > > > would be 
> > > > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > > > >> > insert
> > > > > > > > >> > > the code for a tab character to create 
columns.  
> No, 
> > > I 
> > > > do 
> > > > > > > not 
> > > > > > > > >> want to do
> > > > > > > > >> > > this with the gfx commands (too complex for 
this 
> > > > > > > application).
> > > > > > > > >> > > 
> > > > > > > > >> > > Ken 
> > > > > > > > >> > > 
> > > > > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > >> > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > > > > >> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > > >> > On Behalf
> > > > > > > > >> > > Of Tomasz Janeczko
> > > > > > > > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
> > > > > > > > >> > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: [amibroker] 'Rule Based' 
> > > > > > versus 'Discretionary' 
> > > > > > > > >> trading...
> > > > > > > > >> > > 
> > > > > > > > >> > > Hello,
> > > > > > > > >> > > 
> > > > > > > > >> > > Not wanting to hijack this thread but whenever 
I 
> ask 
> > > > about 
> > > > > > > some 
> > > > > > > > >> itemized
> > > > > > > > >> > > list of what is exactly "weak" in AB charting, 
I 
> > > don't 
> > > > > > > receive 
> > > > > > > > >> any
> > > > > > > > >> > > meaningful reply. I would really want to know 
> some 
> > > > > > objective 
> > > > > > > list
> > > > > > > > >> > instead of
> > > > > > > > >> > > statements I heard on ET that "charts are 
ugly" 
> > > which 
> > > > for 
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > > > >> > unfortunatelly
> > > > > > > > >> > > means nothing, considering the hunderds of 
ways 
> > > charts 
> > > > can 
> > > > > > > be 
> > > > > > > > >> customized
> > > > > > > > >> > > according to user taste in AB.
> > > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Please note that this group is for discussion 
between 
> > > users 
> > > > > > only.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail 
> > > > directly to 
> > > > > > > > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always 
> check 
> > > > > > DEVLOG:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > For other support material please check also:
> > > > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>



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