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I agree Mike in that I don't yet see the WFA angle here. Perhaps Allan
could expand on this.
However, I do see the value in being able to breakdown daily
'discretionary portfolio returns & risk' (whether it's genuinely a
portfolio or one instrument) into the usual analysis metrics.
How far would we want this 'simulated chart trading' facility to
extend...? Would they just be 'at market' buys and sells...? Would you
be able to place stops for each trade based off the chart too...? Are
we talking about placing this information on the chart in replay mode
so that we are simulating being at the RHS of the chart...?
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@xxx> wrote:
>
> I can certainly see the value in calculating a full suite of metrics
> based on the discretionary trades made via clicking on a chart over a
> given time period. These would be the equivalent of a mechanical
> trader's backtest results and would be the benchmark by which
> approaches were measured.
>
> But, how exactly would a discretionary trader perform a WFA given
> that WFA is the application of optimized parameters upon untested
> data?
>
> I doubt that you are suggesting that the discretionary trader would
> manually iterate over the same chart trying different approaches, and
> that AB (or any other product) would then have to somehow figure out
> what the methodology was in order to apply that logic into the next
> out of sample period. Yet, that would be the only way to marry the
> two concepts (i.e. discretionary and WFA).
>
> Even if the software did have some kind of artificial intelligence
> that could capture logic based on the discretionary trades made
> within a period, what would be the point? The discretionary trader
> would not confine themself to the signals produced by the WFA. If
> they did, they would no longer be discretionary, but instead be
> mechanical traders :)
>
> It seems to me that WFA is the exact opposite of discretionary
> trading.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Sidhartha,
> > No offense to anyone,but it is a bit of a messy solution and one
> that
> > is good enough to make one dangerous.
> >
> > It certainly appears that a skilled programmer could make the
> > necessary changes to bring it to a professional level,but I am
> > certainly not that person.
> >
> > IMHO,whether one is a discretionary trader or system trader,the
> > ability to perform some sort on WFA is essential,and the very same
> > analytics/statistics should be available to both styles.
> >
> > Does anyone think the discretionary traders at firms such as SAC
> > capital simply wing it,while the stat arb boys have all the
> > firepower??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I took a look at Herman's thread Mike and I personally think it's
> a
> > > bit of a messy solution to what Allan is requesting. Basically he
> > > wants something of 'professional' quality rather than tacked on.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Your comment on simulated discretionary trading was addressed
> > earlier
> > > > in the thread by Herman, though perhaps not to the degree of
> > backtest
> > > > metrics that you might be after.
> > > >
> > > > http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/message/128437
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi T,
> > > > > As a discretionary trader,I find the charting package in
> Ami
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > excellent.The only gripe I have is that one can not shift to
> > higher
> > > > > time frames(daily to weekly) without the chart and trendlines
> > > > jumping
> > > > > all over the place,i.e.,from one date to the next.Without
> > having
> > > > the
> > > > > end dates locked(far right dates),multiple time frame
> analysis
> > > > > becomes a very difficult task,and analysis is rendered
> > useless.Its
> > > > > essential that the far right side of the chart have the same
> > date
> > > > on
> > > > > any time frame.I discussed it in the past,but you had your
> own
> > > > > views.Sadly,I had to go to another program.
> > > > >
> > > > > On another note,and far more important, a discretionary
> trader
> > > > needs
> > > > > the same risk management tools that a system trader does.The
> > two
> > > > > styles are not so disimilar that a system trader has the
> > benefit of
> > > > > full backtesting/optimisation/WFA while the discretionary
> > trader
> > > > > should be left to perform his analysis with a pencil,paper
> and
> > > > > abacus.Ami should offer the capability to SIMULATE
> > discretionary
> > > > > trading.That means the ability to point and click on the
> chart
> > and
> > > > > record all Entrys(long and short),Exits,and stops with
> > > > > pyramiding/scaling capabilities.In addition full reporting
> > should
> > > > be
> > > > > available with a scaled down version of backtest results as
> > well as
> > > > > the capability to export the trades should one wish to do
> > perform
> > > > > further analysis,i.e position sizing,Money management.
> > > > >
> > > > > Unless one is performing algorithmic trading/mean reversion
> > > > > strategies,I think there is a fine line between rule based
> > trading
> > > > vs
> > > > > discretionary.Granted the approachs are different,but once a
> > trade
> > > > is
> > > > > on,one still has to manage it with the very best tools
> > > > > available.Hopefully,Ami can level the playing field between
> the
> > > > > system "tools" vs the "discretionary" tools avaiable.
> > > > >
> > > > > Allan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Allan
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I appreciate all suggestions and there is really no problem
> > > > > > in adding new features provided that there is demand for
> them.
> > > > > > I specifically asked for charting suggestions, as this is
> way
> > > > > > more "subjective" thing than backtesting and other rule-
> based
> > > > tools.
> > > > > > Discretionary traders seem to be very sensitive to all those
> > > > > > little details and aesthetics. These are are sometimes easy
> > to
> > > > > develop
> > > > > > sometimes not, but unless you hear the feedback it is not
> > possible
> > > > > > to know what every single person uses.
> > > > > > So again, feedback is appreciated. If possible and not too
> > time
> > > > > consuming
> > > > > > for you, I greatly appreciate filling the issue via
> feedback
> > > > > center. If not,
> > > > > > I can keep track on my internal list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > > Tomasz Janeczko
> > > > > > amibroker.com
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> > > > > > To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:30 PM
> > > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based'
> versus 'Discretionary'
> > > > > trading...
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > How97,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I agree. You've stated nothing that I haven't already.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I do use other software... MarketDelta & have been
> looking
> > at
> > > > > Ninja
> > > > > > > with a market profile plug in as an alternative.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Like others, I'm not desperately keen on using multiple
> > software
> > > > > > > systems. I'd rather try and get it under one roof. And
> the
> > > > truth
> > > > > is it
> > > > > > > really wouldn't be hard for TJ to add some of that
> > > > functionality.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm adding my voice to a largely dominant rule based
> > crowd... I
> > > > > hope
> > > > > > > you're ok with free expression of wishes and ideas...??
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think others have also made it clear on this thread
> that
> > > > they'd
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > to see some more functionality on the charting side too.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "how97" <101.158294@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I believe it is clear that the large majority of the AB
> > users
> > > > > want
> > > > > > >> to have the possibility for rule-based trading,
> > backtesting,
> > > > > > >> automatic analysis, automatic trading etc. For that
> group
> > > > > Amibroker
> > > > > > >> is just excellent and it is constantly enhanced in these
> > > > > > >> possibilities. And that is what the large majority of
> its
> > > > users
> > > > > > >> wants. And AB strongly supported by its users and driven
> > by
> > > > > their
> > > > > > >> wishes.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> The large majority of users is clearly not the
> > discretionary
> > > > > > >> traders. These may need better or specialized charting.
> > That
> > > > may
> > > > > > >> well be. If this better charting software exists already
> > as
> > > > you
> > > > > are
> > > > > > >> saying, why are you not using it, why did you come here
> to
> > AB?
> > > > > What
> > > > > > >> were you looking for?
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> I think it is also a clear preference of Tomasz to
> develop
> > AB
> > > > > into a
> > > > > > >> direction where most of its users wants to ahve it. And
> > that
> > > > is
> > > > > > >> good. A lot of the stuff in AB is much too complex if
> you
> > are
> > > > > just
> > > > > > >> looking for other kinds of charting. So why bother? You
> > need
> > > > to
> > > > > use
> > > > > > >> a different software.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> By the way: In my opinion AB allows excellent charting.
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> Regards
> > > > > > >> how97
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70"
> > <sidhartha70@>
> > > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > From my perspective, and this is really why I
> connected
> > > > > charting to
> > > > > > >> > the ideas of 'rule based' vs 'discretionary'
> trading...
> > if
> > > > you
> > > > > are
> > > > > > >> a
> > > > > > >> > discretionary trader, from a software perspective it
> is
> > ALL
> > > > > about
> > > > > > >> > visibility. If the software you are using doesn't or
> > can't
> > > > > give you
> > > > > > >> > the best visibility available then you are at a
> > > > disadvanatge.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > >> > can't make sensible discretionary trading decisions
> > without
> > > > > being
> > > > > > >> able
> > > > > > >> > to see how current market structure has evolved, what
> > market
> > > > > > >> dynamics
> > > > > > >> > are at play, how the auction process is evolving at
> > > > different
> > > > > time
> > > > > > >> > frames etc..etc.. You simply don't get that from bar &
> > > > candle
> > > > > > >> charts.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Hence my obsession with Market Profile & Equivolume
> and
> > > > > generally
> > > > > > >> more
> > > > > > >> > accessability and adaptability to AmiBroker's charting
> > > > > facilicites.
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > Currently it's a fabulous piece of software,
> > particualrly
> > > > > for 'rule
> > > > > > >> > based' traders.... But probably a less fabulous piece
> of
> > > > > software
> > > > > > >> for
> > > > > > >> > discretionary day traders for example. But of course,
> I
> > > > > appreciate,
> > > > > > >> > it's hard to be all things to all men...
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Close
> <ken45140@>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > One simple suggestion for charting improvement:
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Put in the ability to insert a "Tab" character in a
> > Title
> > > > > > >> statement
> > > > > > >> > in order
> > > > > > >> > > to make it easier to produce multi-line tables
> > > > > with "columns"
> > > > > > >> left
> > > > > > >> > justified
> > > > > > >> > > no matter how many decimal places in previous values
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > same
> > > > > > >> row. I
> > > > > > >> > > have done it via complex IIF statements but how nice
> > it
> > > > > would be
> > > > > > >> to
> > > > > > >> > insert
> > > > > > >> > > the code for a tab character to create columns. No,
> I
> > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > >> want to do
> > > > > > >> > > this with the gfx commands (too complex for this
> > > > > application).
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Ken
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > >> > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > >> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > >> > On Behalf
> > > > > > >> > > Of Tomasz Janeczko
> > > > > > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
> > > > > > >> > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: [amibroker] 'Rule Based'
> > > > versus 'Discretionary'
> > > > > > >> trading...
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Hello,
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> > > Not wanting to hijack this thread but whenever I ask
> > about
> > > > > some
> > > > > > >> itemized
> > > > > > >> > > list of what is exactly "weak" in AB charting, I
> don't
> > > > > receive
> > > > > > >> any
> > > > > > >> > > meaningful reply. I would really want to know some
> > > > objective
> > > > > list
> > > > > > >> > instead of
> > > > > > >> > > statements I heard on ET that "charts are ugly"
> which
> > for
> > > > me
> > > > > > >> > unfortunatelly
> > > > > > >> > > means nothing, considering the hunderds of ways
> charts
> > can
> > > > > be
> > > > > > >> customized
> > > > > > >> > > according to user taste in AB.
> > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please note that this group is for discussion between
> users
> > > > only.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail
> > directly to
> > > > > > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check
> > > > DEVLOG:
> > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > For other support material please check also:
> > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------------
Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
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