[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

[amibroker] Re: Buying at open -- In Real Life



PureBytes Links

Trading Reference Links

Ah so!

I didn't know 100K was a hot item in forumland.
If I had I could have grabbed it, no trouble at all.
Now that I know I will be sweating on beating you to 200k.

BrianB2.

--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Yuki Taga <yukitaga@xxx> wrote:
>
> Hi intermilan04,
> 
> This is, of course, not a one-size-fits-all situation.  It is one 
of
> the reasons a particular system designed to buy or sell *anywhere*
> will produce somewhat varied results with varied instruments.
> Liquidity varies from symbol to symbol and market to market.  Make 
a
> note of that. ^_-
> 
> I never buy on the open -- ever -- unless I'm fading a sharply 
lower
> open, or covering.  I sell a lot on the open, particularly into
> strength.  I'd only short on the open to fade power, never to 
chase.
> But I don't short much these days anyway -- for the same reason I
> play the Don't Come bar instead of the Come, when I'm feeling silly
> enough to do something like gamble, where the odds are always 
against
> me anyway.  But that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy on the open, or
> short. It's just my personal preference.
> 
> But ... I don't expect to be able to sell 20,000,000 yen value of 
XYZ
> company on the open as easily as I can sell 20,000,000 yen value of
> ABC company. By and large, I look for vehicles with the liquidity
> that I require, and ignore the rest. I absolutely don't care about
> stocks that are not really, really liquid.  Occasionally, I make
> exceptions, but the exception is always accomplished by reducing
> position size, to accommodate reduced liquidity, which is another 
way
> of saying to accommodate higher risk.
> 
> You should know a few things if you don't already ...
> 
> 1) When you put a market order in prior to the open to be executed 
on
> the open, member firms can probably see it.  I mean size, price,
> margin or cash -- the works.  They know who you are and what you 
are
> doing, or at least they do over here.  I can't speak for all
> countries or exchanges of course, but I would assume when it comes 
to
> money, there are people with an edge, legal or illegal.  When it
> comes to money, people with an edge usually can be expected to
> exploit that edge.
> 
> 2) You should be trading positions that are inconsequential to
> typical opening volume, if your plan is to buy or sell there.  In
> other words, if you *care* if they see your order, you are trading
> too large for the liquidity. If I'm selling 20,000,000 yen value on
> the open, it had better be into a market that typically does 
nearly,
> or even better, more than, a trillion yen value turnover on the 
open.
> 
> This isn't rocket science of course, but the main thing is, you 
want
> to be either invisible, or inconsequential. If you are 
consequential,
> and visible, somebody with deeper pockets than you might develop an
> interest to see just how strong your stomach is.  Always remember
> that you are playing in a field where there is an enormous 
disparity
> of size.  Some people can blow, on a whim, with regularity, what to
> you would be consequential money.  It's just that, to them, it's
> pocket change, or other people's money -- or both.  If they can see
> you, and they smell weakness, I guarantee they will come after you.
> 
> Most players understand these ideas instinctively, and so most 
member
> firms don't spend a lot of time looking over all the pre-market
> trades.  But put something in worth noticing, and don't be 
surprised
> if it gets noticed.
> 
> So, if you are not trading more than a percent or so of opening
> volume, I wouldn't worry about it very much.  The more your
> percentage of opening volume rises, the more risk you take on 
trading
> there.  If you are trading a very small fraction of opening volume,
> you simply aren't worth jerking around; anyone who tries to jerk 
with
> a deep market takes on enormous risk themselves.  So you won't get
> jerked around if you don't make big ripples, so you probably have
> nothing to worry about if that is the case.
> 
> Of course, the less *absolute* liquidity there is (we have been
> talking relative liquidity so far), the more volatile openings are
> going to be. In that case, you need to *really* sneak in and out,
> probably. My advice in a nutshell: Stick to *very* liquid stocks, 
and
> when you can make a consistent living at those, very, very 
carefully
> step out and see how you do where the risk is, I guarantee you,
> higher.
> 
> If you don't know exactly how your market works (as you indicated),
> you'd better learn. If you trade vehicles with low opening 
liquidity
> ... you need to know what your risk parameters are, and if the
> liquidity isn't sufficient to accommodate those parameters, you 
need
> to cut your position size until you achieve a fit.
> 
> This is a tough business full of very smart people, many of whom 
are
> honest, and others who would sell their sisters to a complete
> stranger if the price was right, maybe even at a discount.  This is
> the great watering hole of planet Earth. Clever animals can quench
> their thirst, but a lot of bad things happen around most watering
> holes, too.  Keep your eyes open and your wits about you.
> 
> Lastly, never expect to get 100 percent of what your system does 
in a
> backtest. Develop a really good system, so you don't have to.  
^^_^^
> 
> Yuki
> 
> Tuesday, August 15, 2006, 3:30:37 PM, you wrote:
> 
> i> Hi all,
> 
> i> I'm just curious if anyone here are buying and selling 
securities
> at
> i> the open with market orders, i.e. orders are placed BEFORE 
MARKET
> OPEN
> i> and they get executed as soon as the market opens.
> 
> i> I have noticed that buying at the open might help you get cheap
> i> shares, but the reverse is also true...you might sell your 
shares
> at
> i> really bad bids.
> 
> i> The reason why I'm bringing it up is, my system on Amibroker is
> i> designed to trade at the open.  And strangely enough, my system
> isn't
> i> doing too well ever since I started using it...perhaps it's
> because
> i> I'm getting bad bids and asks by placing market orders 
overnight?
> 
> i> I'm not quite sure how the first trade occurs, in theory I sell
> to the
> i> highest bidder but with low liquidity of pre-market trading, 
what
> if
> i> the highest bid is absurdly low?
> 
> i> Any thoughts on this is greatly appreciated.
> 
> i> Regards,
> 
> i> intermilan04
>