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<FONT face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>Hello Fred, thanks for your comments. Obviously
you
have done your home work and you have identified what data aspects are important
for you, that is exactly what I suggested people do. <FONT
face=Arial size=2> W<FONT
color=#0000ff>e all trade different
systems and for anybody to imply/assume that their personal criteria have
common value and apply to others, without knowing what type of systems the
others are using makes no sense. I may be in the market a few hours after
my signal while others may stay in for a couple of weeks. The rules and criteria
are not the same.
<FONT face=Arial
size=2>
EOD prices give me
more accurate results in my application, RT differences of up to several
percent can and have put me in the opposite position (TWS data). This
hasn't happened to me since I reverted to using EOD prices to generate my
major timing signals. Just play with the Stochastic and see how one such
deviation can have a forward effect on your chart and change your signal a few
bars after it happened.
<FONT face=Arial
size=2>
I don't know how the
EOD values are calculated, i posted at various places on the Internet but got no
authoritive replies, just personal and subjective opinions. EOD Open
prices appear to have a built-in lagless smoothing quality that I
cannot duplicate in backtesting or trading using RT data. <SPAN
class=625550013-12042004>Awhile back I posted a
challenged for a RT formula that would generate a Match for EOD
prices... no replies, just defensive comments from those who prefer to ignore
the problem. I suspect EOD prices are defined/released by the markets and make
use of information that we do not have access to in real time. Sometimes it is
pretty hard to get to the bottom of things.
<SPAN
class=625550013-12042004><FONT face=Arial
color=#000000 size=2>
Best
regards,
<FONT face=Arial
size=2>herman.
<FONT
face=Arial>
<FONT
face=Arial>
<FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: Fred
[mailto:ftonetti@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 8:49
AMTo: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: [amibroker] Re:
Real-Time Trading System ExamplesAs I stated a year
or so ago, not only do EOD prices differ from intraday prices with regards
to the open, they differ regarding the close as well and in some cases
with high and low. I'm not sure why you think the EOD prices are
more accurate, especially when it comes to what is reported for closing
prices as these are typically settling prices that occur AFTER the close
and are therefore NOT tradable, but if that's what you want to use, so be
it. They are however at best only meaningful when trading on delay
i.e. buy/sell at tomorrows open NOT todays prices whether they are based
on close or intraday as they aren't in print yet. From my
perspective the only meaningful numbers are those related to intraday not
EOD.--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Herman van den Bergen"
<psytek@xxxx> wrote:> There is NO problem with how AmiBroker
processes data and there is NO> problem with Data Vendors, the
price differences cannot be blamed on> anybody, they are simply a fact
of market data.> > The differences become more important as your
trades becomes shorter, which> is the case when you migrate from
EOD to RT (my situation). Another factor> is whether you work with
Indices, ETFs or Composites. The only way for you> to know if/how
you are effected is to do your own testing. Market data is> the
foundation of all your trading systems and you should know what you
are> working with.> > IMHO, Using EOD prices in your
formulas is similar to using "smoothed" RT> prices however the
advantage of using EOD Prices is that it gives you more> accuracy
in backtesting and has no lag. My limited experience is that EOD>
Open prices are released within the first second after the Open (no
lag),> tracking this price from the eSignal EOD server starts at
09:18:00 and it> often zeroes in on the real Open price well before
9:30:00 a.m.> > Below are some examples, comparing QP2 with
eSignal RT.> take care,> herman>
> Ticker Date/Time EOD-Open RT-Open
%Difference> AAPL 03/08/04 26.79
26.62 0.63%> AAPL 12/16/03 20.19
20.08 0.54%> AAPL 03/30/04 27.86
27.72 0.50%> AAPL 12/15/03 21.49
21.39 0.47%> AAPL 02/18/04 23.18
23.08 0.43%> AAPL 03/19/04 25.7
25.59 0.43%> AAPL 12/12/03 21.32
21.23 0.42%> AAPL 12/17/03 20.08 20
0.40%> AAPL 01/30/04 22.74 22.65
0.40%> AAPL 03/18/04 25.94 25.85
0.35%> > Ticker Date/Time
EOD-Open RT-Open %Difference> YHOO
03/19/04 46.54 44.93 3.46%> YHOO
11/14/03 42.88 42.66 0.51%> YHOO
01/13/04 49.95 49.73 0.44%> YHOO
03/04/04 43.46 43.34 0.28%> YHOO
01/02/04 45.5 45.38 0.26%> YHOO
03/01/04 44.52 44.41 0.25%> YHOO
02/25/04 44.39 44.31 0.18%> YHOO
01/29/04 46.57 46.49 0.17%> YHOO
02/11/04 47.03 46.95 0.17%> YHOO
02/13/04 47.61 47.54 0.15%>
> Ticker Date/Time EOD-Open RT-Open
%Difference> QCOM 03/16/04 64 63.16
1.31%> QCOM 02/05/04 56.52 55.95
1.01%> QCOM 10/21/03 45.39 44.95
0.97%> QCOM 12/19/03 51.72 51.56
0.31%> QCOM 03/17/04 64.74 64.54
0.31%> QCOM 11/04/03 47.74 47.6
0.29%> QCOM 12/12/03 50.18 50.05
0.26%> QCOM 03/01/04 63.39 63.25
0.22%> QCOM 11/20/03 45.56 45.48
0.18%> QCOM 02/17/04 58.09 58
0.15%> > > > -----Original
Message-----> From: Tomasz Janeczko
[mailto:amibroker@xxxx]> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:26
AM> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: Real-Time Trading System
Examples> Importance: High> >
> Hello,> > I have already wrote
that accessing DAILY data in intraday database is OF> COURSE
POSSIBLE.> Use TimeFrame functions or just switch
periodicity in AA Settings window> to DAILY.>
> The fact that data on EOD eSignal server are different
than time> compressed data on intraday eSignal
server> is NOT the problem of AmiBroker. This is because
how exchanges report EOD> data and actually>
time-compressed intraday data provide ACCURATE picture - because
they> represent REAL trades that occured> during
REAL trading session.> And represent prices that your
orders could actually be filled at.>
=======================================> > Mixing
data from eSignal daily and intraday servers would result in>
infinite confusion becuase> close at 16:00 would could be
DIFFERENT depending what viewing interval> you choose.>
> Also problems appear with OPEN price as it is NOT
possible to trade> exactly on open on certain
exchanges.> For example on Nasdaq you can not place real
"market on open" order> see for example:>
> <A
href="">http://www.interactivebrokers.com/html/tradingInfo/orders/MarketOpenCloseOrd>
ersSimulated.html> > so you can not get filled at
open (Market On Open orders are "simulated"> on Nasdaq by placing
market order within first 30 seconds of trading>
session)> Considering this what's the purpose of using EOD
open when you can not get> filled at this
price.> Using real intraday data gives you much better
robustness of your backtest> (you can calculate for example the
average> price of first 1 minute of trading and enter on
that price)> > And of course your system seems to be
way to sensitive to be successful in> real life if it yields so
much different> results when daily prices differ by such
small amounts. You should really> add at least 0.2% for slippage to
treat> the backtest with minimum amount of
credibility.> > Best regards,>
Tomasz Janeczko>
amibroker.com> ----- Original Message
-----> From: Herman van den
Bergen> To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, April
12, 2004 4:06 AM> Subject: RE: [amibroker] Re:
Real-Time Trading System Examples> >
> In simple situations you only have to run the
EOD version once a day to> generate the table. But during
development i work with different systems and> watchlists, so I may
want to generate many different tradelists during the> day and i
shuffle back and forth between EOD and RT.>
> If we could access both the RT and EOD
database at the same time from> the RT version (Not possible right
now) many problems would be solved.> However there are other
reasons why creating a file with AA statistics and> having a means
to read the Stats back would be handy....for example you> could use
two-pass Backtests and use stats from the first pass in the second>
in Scoring and PositionSize formulas, or plot the statistics from>
indicators, show complex trade stats on the screen or in
Interpretation> windows from the chart, analyze portfolio trades,
etc. Remember that such a> table offers a form of Persistent memory
that can be acessed by successive> AA operations.>
> I have not had an occassion where i needed
the EOD version to access the> RT version.>
> h>
-----Original Message-----> From:
danielwardadams
[mailto:danielwardadams@xxxx]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 9:40
PM> To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject:
[amibroker] Re: Real-Time Trading System Examples> >
> I've applied to the other list
but can't access it yet.> >
Maybe it's apparent from what you say there but would there be a
need> for simultaneous instances if
you could access the EOD
database> directly from an RT
instance? If not, you could just run the
EOD> version once a day to
update the data. Does the EOD version ever
need> to access the RT version for
anything?> > Dan>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx,
"Herman van den Bergen">
<psytek@xxxx> wrote:> >
You may want to read my post on the DLL
list> > <A
href="">http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker-dll/message/1320>
>> > From my post you will
see that I prefer two independent
but>
simultaeous,> > AmiBroker
instances (one RT and one EOD) so that they
can> communicate
with> > each other. I would be
quite happy to run the EOD on one screen
and> run
the> > RT on another - as long
as my RT could access the EOD Signals
and> >
Statistics.>
>> > I currently have a
prototype running in this fashion, it
requires>
Exporting> > the EOD tradelist
to allow my RT code to read it. I use
String>
Manipulation> > to parse the
code, match dates, and fill in my RT data with
EOD> > signals/prices. While
running RT i use the selected (or loop)
date>
to> > retrieve the relevant Row
from the TradeReport file. It works
but> is
slow> > and still buggie, I
would prefer a simple and fast DLL as
outlined> in my
DLL> > post. As you can read
there it would offer a variety of
other>
attractive> > applications. With
a little luck somebody with C-expertise
will> like
the> > idea and write a DLL.
Most of the work has already been done and
is> > available from the public
domain OSAKA C-Sourcecode in DLL
files.>
>> > wrt the -at list, I gave
up on Ninja because i found it too
highly> > integrated with
it's proprietary Entry/Exit strategies. I prefer
to> do
my> > "own thing" using the
simplest possible API interface.
There> haven't
been> > many posts because
Tomasz may be offering Automated trading at
some>
point,> > it would be unlikely
for any parallel efforts to be competative
in> terms
of> > features, reliability and
delivery date.>
>> > best
regards,> >
herman> >
-----Original Message----->
> From: mrdavis9
[mailto:mrdavis9@xxxx]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 5:23
PM> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re: Real-Time Trading System
Examples> >
Importance: High>
>>
>> > My post
below was intended to encourage you to keep
this>
discussion> > PUBLIC, and only
use private emails where necessary. I won't
have> time
to> > study it in depth till
later. However, I am saving all
automated>
trading> > discussions that I
see in an Outlook Express folder
entitled>
AUTOMATED> >
TRADING. I don't have a lot of saved messages yet, but I
have> copied
one> > here as an example of
what I am saving, I saw this on the
Ninja> Trader
yahoo> > group. I stopped
watching their discussions awhile back. Ron
D> >
==================================================================>
>> > I've taken 5
systems which I was using to trade manually,
changed> > them
so they can run without me, backtested them on IRT until
I'm> > happy with
them and set them off live.>
>> > Expectancy
(based on (Pw * Aw)- (Pl * Al) where P =
probability,> A
=> > Average, w =
win and l = loss) ranges from 1.8 to 2.7 and R/R
from> > 2.4 to 6.1.
Percent wins range from 38% to 52% in the
backtest> >
period. All systems use a variety of indicators (CCI, FASTD
and> > custom
indicators mostly) and multiple time
frames.>
>> > The single
most important factor in improving
backtested>
performance> >
turned out to be identifying conditions in longer timeframes
which> > lead to
poor results and modifying the scans to prevent
trading>
when> > those
conditions apply. With some scans this results in very
few> > trades (15 or
20 per quarter) so backtest results
are>
statistically> >
dubious and, as backtesting itself is not a 100% representation
of> > what will
happen in real life, I will hold off buying the
yacht>
for> > the
timebeing.>
>> >
========================================================>
> ----- Original Message
-----> >
From: dingo>
> To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 1:49
PM> >
Subject: RE: [amibroker] Re: Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>>
>> >
I posted some code (vbScript) to export the trade list
under>
some> > circumstances - look
back using this thread subject.>
>> >
d>
>>
>>
>> >
-------------------------------------------------------------------->
------>
> From: mrdavis9
[mailto:mrdavis9@xxxx]>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 2:38
PM>
> To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [amibroker] Re:
Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>>
>>
> I am also interested in the subject
of this thread. Ron D>
> ----- Original Message
----->
> From:
danielwardadams>
> To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, April 11,
2004 1:30 PM>
> Subject: [amibroker] Re:
Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>>
>>
> Herman &
dingo,>
> I'd also be interested in
anything you come up with. I
want> to
solve>
> the same problem as you
Herman. Hope you're making
better>
progress>
> than me though
...>
>>
>
Dan>
>>
>>
> --- In
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "dingo"
<dingo@xxxx>>
wrote:>
> > sounds neat.
I'll contact you off-line to work up
some>
specs.>
>
>>
> >
d>
>
>>
>
>>
> >
_____>
>
>>
> > From: Herman van den
Bergen [mailto:psytek@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 9:51 PM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>
>>
>
>>
> > Anytime you are
ready, if you write the code for
the>
tradelist>
> export
I'll>
> > share whatever afl I
turn out to read the file from RT
:-)>
> > I have the basics
working and hope to finish it over
the>
weekend.>
> It is
kind>
> > of neat you just
click anywhere on the RT chart and
see> all
the> >
EOD>
> > particulars in the
RT Interpretation window :-)
still> have to
do>
> the
date>
> >
matching...>
>
>>
> >
h>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
> > -----Original
Message----->
> > From: dingo
[mailto:dingo@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 9:37 PM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
> > Importance:
High>
>
>>
>
>>
> > Your BTW is
EXACTLY what I was going to
suggest.>
>
>>
> > I'll work you up
something to do the exporting
(and> little
bit>
> more).
How>
> > soon do you need
it?>
>
>>
> >
d>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
> >
_____>
>
>>
> > From: Herman van den
Bergen [mailto:psytek@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 9:13 PM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>
>>
>
>>
> >
InLine...>
>
>>
> > -----Original
Message----->
> > From: dingo
[mailto:dingo@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 7:49 PM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
> > Importance:
High>
>
>>
>
>>
> > I'm still trying to
get my head around what
approach>
you're> >
wanting>
> to
take.>
>
>>
> > Are you going to use
EOD data and formula to produce
your>
buy>
>
signals?>
> > Yes, because they
are more accurate than RT signals -
for> what
i> >
am>
>
doing.>
>
>>
> > Or are you going to
use Realtime data and another
formula> to
do> >
your>
> >
entries?>
> >
Yes.>
>
>>
> > Are you going to use
Realtime data and formula to
manage>
> stops/exits
for>
> > open
positions?>
> >
Yes.>
>
>>
> > If that's the case
then you won't need to mix your>
databases and>
> your
EOD>
> > formula can be
separate from the realtime formula,
right?>
> > Indeed, but only in
real trading, the problem is that
I> need
to>
> > develop&optimize
the RT components with backtesting.
How> would
I>
> optimize
my>
> > RT stops over
historical data if I don't have access
to> the
EOD>
>
signals,>
> > stock picks, scores,
shares, and trade-prices in my>
formula? All>
> these
are>
> > based on EOD data
and can not be calculated accurately
in>
RT.>
>
>>
> > I assume you have
the EOD formula that generates the
buys>
working>
> >
satisfactorily?>
> > Yes, but is is price
sensitive and gets all
confused> dealing
with>
>>
>
things>
> > like -17 to +30 cts
RT volatility/noise of the
OHLC> Prices
(AAPL).>
>
>>
> > If you are going to
use a formula to manage your>
stops/exits have>
> you
been>
> > able to complete
this or is this the question that
you're>
asking?>
> > There are many
formulas and i haven't decided which
to> use,
My>
> system
must>
> > first work with EOD
performance in an RT
environment.>
>
>>
> > Assuming you have a
formula to manage those stops/exits
-> have
you>
>
worked>
> > out a way to trigger
the trade?>
> >
NO.>
>
>>
> > I believe you
mentioned that Ninja Trader wasn't
the> answer.
Is>
> this
a>
> > piece you're asking
about as well?>
> > Not now, waiting for
TJ to introduce automation...
i> still
have>
> work to
do>
> > and hope to be ready
when TJ is...>
>
>>
> > Lots of questions,
eh?>
> > Not really; I have a
lot more :-)>
>
>>
> > I'm asking because
I'm headed in that direction as well
-> just
not>
> as
ready>
> > as you are right
now.>
> > Let me know how
things work out for you... and what
path>
you> >
decide>
>
on.>
>
>>
> > BTW, today I thought
of another approach, a brute
force>
method>
> alright
but>
> > it might work. I
simply export the entire EOD trade
list> and
read>
> it
from>
> > the RT code. For
each RT date I look up the matching
EOD> row
in> >
the>
>
Trade>
> > list, I then extract
whatever information i need.
Tried> it, It
is>
>
actually>
> > faster than i
expected. All i need now is an
automatic> Export
at>
> the end
of>
> > my EOD backtest ;-)
any ideas?>
>
>>
> >
h>
>
>>
> >
TIA>
>
>>
> >
d>
>
>>
>
>>
> >
_____>
>
>>
> > From: Herman van den
Bergen [mailto:psytek@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 12:01 PM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>
>>
>
>>
> > [d]Or are you trying
to take an EOD system and trying
to> make
your>
>
system>
> > "more granular" and
pick the same patterns in
intraday>
data?>
>
>>
> > I am mainly trying
to improve Entries and Exits, i am
not>
looking>
>
for>
> > patterns. The
systems work fine in EOD but I observed
on> the
RT>
> charts
that>
> > i often miss locking
in some really nice profits
that> fade
before> >
I>
> exit.
So>
> > i want to code in
Trailing stops that activate at
a> certain
profit>
> and
than>
> > exit when the price
drops back a bit. For example, if
my>
profits>
> reaches
2%>
> > during the first two
hours of the trade, then i want
to> activate
a>
> Stop
and>
> > exit when my profits
drop back to 1.5%. ApplyStops
cannot> be
used>
> in
very>
> > short-term (1-3
days) trading because on the day of
exit> it
is>
> unknown
which>
> > came first, the High
or the Low, or with profit
stops,> how
many>
> dips
there>
> > were during the day
that would have terminated the
trade.> RT
data>
> is
needed>
> > to develop proper
stops. limits, etc. with the
short> trades i
use.>
>
>>
> > If i trade 1-3 times
a week and i might be able to
reduce>
my>
> exposure by
50%>
> > if I managed to get
out based on profits instead
of> timing.
I> >
would>
>
prefer>
> > overall less profits
if it came with less exposure.
Also,>
the>
> strength
of>
> > signals fades pretty
fast... have you ever tested your
n->
Bar>
> profits?
i.e.>
> > profits made on the
1st, 2nd and 3rd day? You can
vary> the
entry>
> delay
and>
> > use n-Bar stops to
limit the trade duration, that way
you>
> can
"isolated">
> > single days
(profits) of your trade. For me,
typical>
profit>
>
distributions>
> > might be 65% 25% 10%
for a system with an average of
3-> bar
trades.>
> So
the>
> > first day obviously
has the greatest profit potential
at> the
least>
>
exposure.>
> > IMHO, short term
signals have a limited life-time:
after> a
certain>
> number
of>
> > days you are just
hoping to get lucky :-) knowing your
n->
Bar>
> profits
may>
> > help you decide
whether it is worth it (risk) to stay
in> a
trade> >
or>
>
not.>
>
>>
> > [d] IMHO you are in
un-charted waters as far as AB
goes.>
>
>>
> > We got some smart
cookies on this list, I just
can't> believe
that>
> nobody
is>
> > working on this; it
appears the obvious way to keep
your>
EOD> >
system>
>
working>
> > now that RT trading
is catching on. So I hope you
are> wrong
on> >
this>
> one
:-)>
>
>>
> >
h>
>
>>
> > -----Original
Message----->
> > From: dingo
[mailto:dingo@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 11:21 AM>
> > To:
amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: RE:
[amibroker] Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
> > Importance:
High>
>
>>
>
>>
> > IMHO you are in
un-charted waters as far as AB
goes.>
>
>>
> > Are you trying to
come up with a system to do
backtesting> with
or>
> one
to>
> > monitor trades /
manage stops for real-time trading?
Or> are
you>
> trying
to>
> > take an EOD system
and trying to make your system
"more>
granular">
> and
pick>
> > the same patterns in
intraday data?>
>
>>
> >
d>
>
>>
>
>>
> >
_____>
>
>>
> > From: Herman van den
Bergen [mailto:psytek@xxxx]>
> > Sent: Friday, April
09, 2004 11:14 AM>
> > To: AmiBroker
YahooGroups>
> > Subject: [amibroker]
Real-Time Trading System
Examples>
>
>>
>
>>
> > Would anybody have
some example code for Real Time
trading> >
systems?>
> I
have>
> > considerable trouble
converting EOD systems to RT data
-> tried
too>
> many
ways>
> > to mention but
always hit a snag at some advanced
point.>
My> >
problem>
>
areas>
> >
are:>
>
>>
> > 1) Converting or
duplicating EOD signals to RT, I
need>
this> >
because>
> EOD
data>
> > prices are more
accurate than those I get from RT
sources.>
> > 2) Running the basic
EOD system in RT, i.e. reproduce
EOD>
signals>
> in RT.
I>
> > want this as a
verification stage before trying
to> enhance
the>
> system
with>
> > RT
data>
> > 3) Custom coding
Profit targets, Limit Prices and
Stops.>
> > 4) Optimizing entry
points by using Pre/after
hours> trading
and/or>
>
using>
> > delayed/early
entries and exits.>
> > 5) Showing EOD
Arrows (derived from EOD data, not from
RT> data)
on>
> my
minute>
> >
charts.>
>
>>
> > If anybody has
example code or reference URLs to
share> that
would>
> be
much>
> >
appreciated.>
>
>>
> > Also, i am beginning
to wonder how many subscribers,
if> any,
have>
>
actually>
> > solved the above
problems. If you have done so
perhaps> you
can>
> share
this>
> > simple fact (no code
needed), knowing that it has
been>
done>
> successfully
is>
> > a great motivator
:-)>
>
>>
> > TIA and best
regards,>
> >
herman.>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
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