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Clyde:
Perhaps the words missing here are this:
One is describing a pure system, where he takes every trade, come hell or
high water.
One is describing a systematic approach to trading, where he uses
indicators and perhaps even a trading system that generates signals--but in
this case, he uses the signals as part of his systematic approach.
I have been described to investors and in articles as a trader with a
systematic approach. I think it is more correct, when describing what I do,
to say I have a methodology that I apply to the market, which allows me to
look for repeatable trade set ups [enties and exits] that I have done
statistical research on.
Like you, I'd rather get back to trading talk but people are free to post
on what suits them and some people, apparently, are passionate on the
meaning of labels.
I'm praying the two big storms stay away from your area, my friend.
have a great weekend.
Tim
At 02:06 PM 10/23/2005, you wrote:
>I do not think this chain of posts adds anything to the "trading lore" that is
>such a part of RealTraders. This seems to be all semantics.
>
>I am a pure "system trader". I develop pure "systems" that can be
>automatically
>traded (and I do when not in middle of software development) in TS8.1 but my
>trading partner is a "non-pure" system trader in that he uses my systems
>as the
>primary source of trading logic but sometimes does not take a "system" trade
>for one reason or another.
>
>I cannot say he is not a system trader but theoretically he is not but he does
>quite well for us.
>
>I really think this discussion should simply state the elements of the
>"system"
>is (whether automatic or manual) in much the same way that Tim outlines
>his trading methods on a day by day, logic step by logic step basis.
>
>That is what RealTraders is all about. Not some silly argument between
>a couple of folks about something that really has little or nothing to do
>about actual trading.
>
>Clyde
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:momentumtraderr2002@xxxxxxxxx>momotrdr
>To: <mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 01:54 PM
>Subject: Re: [RT] My impression is that many had a bad day
>
>Ok, then you simply re-enforced the definition that I offered unto the group.
>
>If by the "Not Automated" part you mean you simply execute the trades
>manually,
>and needn't the help of a Automatic Execution algorithm, then ok. It is a
>system that
>you simply manually place the trades. However, given this post as well as
>your previous
>ones you also stated, that you *disregarded* some signals. So by your own
>definition
>of ,>>a system is a set of rules which must be adhered to to enter and
>exit trades without using discretion<<, your back to the basics of Discretion.
>
>I understand from what you've described that you have several rules,
>"multiple choices",
>"higher time frames", etc.. There again, if you in fact have written and
>listed rules by
>which to enter and exit your trades then they could in fact be programmed
>and allowed
>to be traded automatically. However, again as you described earlier, you
>are choosing to
>disregard some signals. The Toolkit, indicator set, collage of
>oscillators, etc.. are therefore
>simply allowing you to take precise trades at a specific time or tick bar.
>But in the end
>you as the trader are having to consider "Market Structure" and then
>simply REACT to what
>you are seeing. If you feel the signal makes no sense given the market
>environment,
>then you simply negate that signal and move on. Is this correct?
>
>If so, then all I'm suggesting is that you simply use correct semantics.
>
>By sharing with the group in your earlier post you were attempting to
>share how your "system"
>and therefore "Systems" in general could potentially trade very
>effectively in the market
>environment that some traders may find difficult. However, in reality all
>you've shown is
>that your toolkit, pointed out some good points of entry in retrospect.
>Which again brings us
>back to the reality that unless you as the trader REALLY took those trades
>then the
>signals as a retrospective point of reference mean nothing.
>
>What you are describing to us is more the fact that points of entry were
>pointed out to go
>in the correct direction of market during the day. Well hopefully you took
>those entry
>points. If so, then your discretionary mind REACTED to the right "signals"
>being displayed
>on your charts.
>
>If you are really trying to make the arguement that your rules clearly
>define when, where, and how to take a trade, then Why not automate?
>
>My interpretation of this is that you cannot. Simply because your "system"
>requires YOU behind the screens in order to take the correct trades.
>
>Many that I have met in trading circles have come to me with this type of
>thinking. That
>they have something that is effective and they have a burning desire to
>share it, or even
>Worse attempt to share it with others so that they may setup some type of
>profit share.
>In the end these individuals are deluding themselves into thinking they
>have something
>concrete that can be easily transferable, "if only" the people they share
>it with can
>Stick to the Rules! In the end they meet with dismal failure. Simply
>because they
>lack the understanding that the real truth of what they have or claim to
>have exists just in
>their mind.
>
>So, I beg, beseech, implore you to consider what I'm saying and answer
>truthfully if you
>understand.
>
>
>
>
>
>jan4123@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
>It is a matter of definition.
>In my vocabulary, automated system has fully coded entry and exit signals.
>Not automated, but still a system is a set of rules which must be adhered
>to to enter and exit trades without using discretion (e.g. having multiple
>choices). It can be a combination of coded signals with a set of
>additional rules, e.g. requiring signal confirmation by a higher time
>frame chart which I use.
>
>That is how I define it, but I may accept other definitions without them
>affecting my stomach and I hope yours is better :-).
>
>Jan Philipp
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: momotrdr
>Sent: Oct 22, 2005 2:19 PM
>To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc: actionReactionLab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: [RT] My impression is that many had a bad day
>
>I'd like to raise my hand and add to this topic the consideration for
>labeling correctly
>what we are talking about. Assigning an operational definition if you
>will. When I hear the likes of J. Phillip using the word "System" to
>describe what he has it makes me sick to my stomach. For it is not a
>"System" but more a "Toolkit" that allows for interest to be taken
>in "Statistically Significant points of interest" However, a System does
>Not allow for
>any discretion to be added to the signals being delivered on the chart or
>in fact
>executed by the program.
>
>Appologies in advance to the list, just so tired of hearing people
>describe what they have
>as a System then go on to describe how they took this trade but didn't
>take that one, etc..
>etc..
>
>I do mostly discretion myself, and have kicked and crawled my way up the
>food chain
>from doing 1 and 2 lots to 100 and 200lots at a time. So, I feel I have
>something to add here.
>
>However, I do have at my disposal, Systems. They do help me by drawing my
>attention
>to overall market structure throughout the day and potentially a bias that
>*may* be forming or has already formed. For instance the Systems that I
>run and have at my disposal are 100% automated, true Systems, no
>discretion involved. Of the few only one has a track record of 8+years
>producing a 45deg. equity curve and back to back month to month profits.
>
>in the style of J.P. not trying to brag, but taking it one step further,
>running a true system
>can and does produce real world profits. Furthermore, attempting to
>backtest a so-called,
>"system" that was previously described doesn't produce a trackable equity
>curve.
>
>the following is Not curve fitted(at all) and accounts for comms., and
>slippage(in/out)
>
>Hope we can all call a System a System and anything else that is
>discretionary with
>help of indicator sets, whether Strategy-based or not "a Toolkit."
>
>
>
>EAdamy <eadamy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>There are some regulars who have been on this list for many, many years
>and Tim Morge is one of them. I use quite a variety of tools (EW,
>regression channels, forks, etc.) and apply the tools individually or in
>combination as the market varies its character. I do use some of Tim's
>methods and they do work well for me. I also enjoy reading Tim's
>commentary because they describe in logical detail how he does his setups
>and how he executes his trades as the market unfolds. I've been around
>trading long enough to spot a BS artist from quite a distance and Tim is
>not one of them.
>
>I submit that the long term "survivors" on this list are perfectly capable
>of setting up trades "ahead of time" and executing their trading plans.
>For discretionary traders, the market is part "art" and "sixth sense" and
>it must work to the trader's advantage or they would not be among the
>survivors. Finally, most wannabe traders will take a good system and lose
>money with it because they will not have the discipline to execute the
>system as it needs to be executed ... been there done that. I tried system
>trading for some years before I threw it out and began applying
>discretionary trading techniques. Discretionary works for me, but you
>won't see me trashing system traders. In fact, I follow Clyde Lee's posts
>on his cyclical systems with considerable interest.
>
>Earl
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:jan4123@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>jan4123@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: <mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
><mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Cc:
><mailto:actionReactionLab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>actionReactionLab@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
>Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 1:43 AM
>Subject: Re: [RT] My impression is that many had a bad day
>
>Tim,
>
>It was never my intention to accuse you of fitting forks into trades or
>vice versa. It's just that pichforks, wave count, Wolve, etc. all of them
>prove well in hindsight, but are not so easy to set up ahead of time to
>get good results. This all boils down to the question: what is the
>accuracy of these methods which is hard to answer because they are as much
>science as art. Not many traders will get the same results using the same
>methodology of that sort.
>
>I mentioned the Median Line because I visited your "conference room" ystd
>and watched your chart at the same time as I was trading my system (from
>~12:30 to 13:10) so it was the first thing that came to mind. And I did
>say that pitchforks often work which obviously was the case of your recent
>trades.
>
>As to my trades of ystd, I just showed what a system can do (not as
>evidence of my prowess) on a day which caused some confusion among some
>traders on the list.
>
>Let's not be too sensitive and no bad feelings, please,
>Jan Philipp
>
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