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Re: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING



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Stan-
 
Thank you for your well thought out question!!  Well; in the first instance I do not understand the OTHER types of program
trading strategies.  I can't explain what they are doing; or how to spot the four patterns of intra-day program trading.  In the
final analysis; I can't take issue with your conclusion; which I suppose makes the practical application of this concept
nebulous at best.  Maybe your thoughtful analysis has provided the ultimate answer to my original dilema?
 
Chas 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING

I have a comment in the form of a question. After pondering the nature of program
trading that is NOT an arbitrage strategy why is it so different from trading in general?
Aren't the non-arbitrage programs buying stocks that reach a buy price level and
selling vice versa?  The fact that one could program to buy/sell baskets of stocks
instead of deciding at the end of a staff analysis meeting should not make much of
a difference. 
Remember I'm not talking about ARB or hedge strategies which supposedly account
for only 10% of the program trading volume.
 
Also what is the difference  with the regular market if a Hedge fund places buy and sell orders separately and not as a program trade?
 
So the issue stated by Charles Meyer is that arbitrage trading does not reflect supply
and demand and my questions ask why not. 
 
Thank you
Stan Rubenstein
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:58 AM
Subject: RE: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING

Pure volume has very little meaning for the reasons you state.  In stocks it has been quite some time since you could get genuine directional volume data.  It's worse in derivates where probably two thirds of the trading is hedge relayed.  Some people try to filter back to public only, but that data is rarely realtime.


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Meyer [mailto:chaze@xxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wed 2/2/2005 9:55 AM
To: REAL TRADERS
Subject: [RT] PROGRAM TRADING
 
Group-

I was wondering if I can get some feedback on the subject of program trading; as it relates to volume analysis.  I've been doing a lot of studying on this subject and here's the issue.  In the old days; total volume of shares traded was just that; insofaras it accounted for all the exchange trading.  Today; end of day volume of shares traded on both the NYSE and the NASDAQ is greatly influenced by program trading.  It is said to account for about an estimated 50% of all volume.  Stated simply; program trading greatly influences total volume.  Now; it seems to me this has to greatly impact the INTERPRETATION OF VOLUME BASED INDICATORS; because we are no longer seeing the pure forces of supply and demand as in the days when program trading didn't exist?

To further complicate matters (if it is necessary to do so; but I am getting ahead of myself here) of all program trading;
only 10% is the index arb variety where stocks are sold; and futures are bought simultaneously; and vice versa.  However;
there are OTHER and perhaps MORE IMPORTANT types of program trading strategies which must impact the analysis
of supply and demand vis a via volume based indicators?  If I may provide an example.  Last Friday sell programs drove the Dow down about 50-points when sell price levels were hit and program trading came into the market.  For DAYTRADING purposes this was valuable information since one could have front run these orders on the short side.  However; on some days one would lose money and the correct strategy would be to fade a sell program by buying into the market at those levels and times.

Daytrading impact aside; is there a way to modify volume based indicators which would provide a clearer representation
of pure supply/demand market generated information for the purposes of swing and end of day trading?  If someone could
please share their experiences and there are no answers to this dilema; it will at least save me a lot of wasted time and energy trodding a worthless path. 

If you have been with me this far; thank you for your time and attention; and any feedback.

Chas









for by program trading




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