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RE: [RT] Commodities, especially live cattle



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Yes, I'm afraid your math is wrong as you're comparing apples to oranges. You're trying to equate a fully invested stock account with a fully utilized (not sure that anyone 'invests' in futures) futures account. Won't happen - at least not with anyone who's been trading for more than a few months. The fact that futures are highly leveraged doesn't necessarily imply more risk. Whether it's stocks (far too risky for me) or futures, I risk a specific $ amount and look for a specific reward. I don't care whether the leverage is a million to 1. My risk is pre-determined. Yes, I think that some commodities are more risky than others, but that's a function of the commodity itself, not the fact that it's a future.
 
Having said all that, I still haven't seen any futures contract lose 95% of its value overnight and, yes, I'm still bitter over Bre-X.
 
Andrew
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Trey Johnson [mailto:dickjohnson3@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:42 AM
To: realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: [RT] Commodities, especially live cattle

Hello Andrew,
   You mean there's another reason that driving is risky? Isn't that why people buy car insurance? Futures trading is most certainly riskier than stocks, theoretically. First, futures trading is a zero sum game. Secondly, futures have expiration dates. You never have to worry about taking delivery of live cattle when trading stocks. Thirdly, it's a mathematical fact that leverage increases risk. If you have an account fully invested at a leverage of 10 to 1, then a 10% move against you in the underlying wipes you out. They same account trading with no leverage would require a 100% move against you to wipe you out. From a probability standpoint, which is more likely to happen, a 10% move or a 100% move? Please correct me if I'm wrong with my math here as certainly wouldn't be the first time. Of course, someone trading the leveraged account would compensate for the increased risk by trading fewer contracts. In stocks, most people don't trade with leverage. If they do, it's by choice. Plus, they must get approval and there are limits to the amount of margin. However, in futures everyone is leveraged. Therefore, futures trading, from a leverage stand point is most certainly more risky than non-leveraged stock trading.  As you pointed out, there are measures one can take to limit the risk: position sizing, stops, spreads, options, close trade prior to delivery, etc. Risk management is key.
    Back to the original question. One thing I do for any market I trade is go back through the entire history and measure the following.
        1. Series of runs. That is, how many times has the market gone up/down X number of days/weeks/months in a row. Starting at 1 up to the maximum.
        2. The maximum move up/dn in a day, week, month. Do this as a percentage and in dollars.
        3. For markets with daily limits, measure the number of limit moves and then measure how many times the market has made limit moves in row up/dn. What was the dollar value the percentage move each time.
Use all these values and measures as risk proxies, keeping in mind that those extreme, rare values most certainly will be exceeded at some point in the future. Make sure you and your account can handles these possibilities. I hope this helps.
Trey
 

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