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Re: [RT] setups



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Michael, et al, 
This gets a little more complicated in exchange for 
a higher probability trade by using the future to time an OEX entry or to trade 
the futures themselves.  On the left side of the chart is Clyde's version 
of market profil or Price Distribution Analysis.  Today's open was below 
Tuesday's value area low, so I am looking to short a rally to test Tues va low 
or point of control.  SP was so weak it could not even reach the va low so 
with negative volume and issue trends and waiting for synchronization of the 
system components things came together at that high TICK.  It is also 
helpful to use the 24 hour emini for perspective.  On the @ESH3 it was 
manifesting a "sell the midpoint and fib retrace channels".  It was also 
accompanied with a steady negative Chande Mkt Thrust.  Bill Blau's TSI 
picked off an entry on the short side when it rallied to the zero line and then 
crossed below.  The times on that chart are in Pacific so add 2hr for 
Chicago and 3 for NY.  You can see that the TSI zero crossing was 
coincident with the short entry time on the other charts.  I'll make one 
more post using the older sets of pivots.
 
bobr
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
  BobR 
  
  To: <A title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 3:16 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [RT] setups
  
  Michael,
  Even though the OEX has taken backseat in my 
  trading room, I still keep some charts on it.  Today the CBOE call and 
  put trins were in a bearish configuration after 10:05 AM ET.  Prior to 
  that they were mixed.  Tick hit less than -600 but a long was 
  avoided because of the 30 minute rule and the cboe trin config and the breadth 
  information.  So with this setup a long trade was avoided until the OEX 
  hit an upper distribution(red arrow) and turned south, everything was in sync 
  for a short, even a +800 TICK.  Another rule was to buy puts at the top 
  of the hour +,-10 minutes depending on tick and prem and some breadth info(in 
  the posted system it was an intraday McClellan Osc).  I'll make another 
  post following this one showing a more sophisticated layout.  There would 
  have been no problems taking 5 points out today.
   
  bobr
   
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
    <A title=beeline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    href="mailto:beeline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>Michael 
    To: <A 
    title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    
    Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:26 
    PM
    Subject: Re: [RT] setups
    
    Bobr, thx for the email I trade options (on a 
    non US exchange ) & found your post useful...
      one point I wld take issue with as being 
    a bit simplistic (from my experience) however was point 9...specifically 
    ......
    "Once you get the one point gain, don't 
    give it back.  Move your stop as the option goes more in the 
    money."
     
    This sounds nice in theory, but most here are 
    familiar with the concept of slippage in futures trading ....but in options 
    trading slippage is worse & can be much worse, than that in futures 
    trading in my observations anyway (& more so  in short dated 
    options trading which is what you seem to be recommending 
    here....ie..   "If the trend 
    is strong and with your trade you can play closer to the 
    close.  This is more significant during expiration week which gives you 
    the best trades because of the gamma 
    effect.")
       I 
    realize you were only outlining these pointers from memory of an old system 
    so my comments may be unfair also you are referring to strongly trending 
    issues so this adds to the odds of success for your method & 
    makes slippage less of an issue..but obviously even in strongly trending 
    stocks you do get corrective retraces    ..So I thought it 
    worthwhile pointing out ...also by my penning this email,somebody may be 
    able to show me why slippage is not such a big issue in trading US options 
    trading(I have only traded on the Aust exchange) if so I wld be interested 
    to read the explanation & may switch exchanges if true...but (in my 
    experience)the concept of Implied volatility combined with short dated 
    vehicles...not too mention large spreads in most issues normally can result 
    in very savage pullbacks in the option bid/ask in a v.short time ..if the 
    basis stock has a quick retrace/pullback etc..fwiw.
       Despite these negative issues I 
    still find options trading worthwhile..but I have learnt only to trade 
    sparingly here & when odds are in my favour (I realize your list of 
    rules above were also towards that end btw & I concur ...but thought it 
    worthwhile mentioning one of the negatives that you appeared to oversimplify 
    ..(imo))..I think overall (& I realize this is not a revelation)..but 
    most options trading is more suited to position traders, due to concepts 
    like wide bid/ask spread & other factors some which I have mentioned 
    above while futures more suited to daytrading....But if you feel you 
    have a trading advantage in derivatives ..due to system or whatever I guess 
    that can help to even the score & keep you daytrading options vs 
    futures.
    Thanks
    MichaelO
    <BLOCKQUOTE 
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      ----- Original Message ----- 
      <DIV 
      style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
      <A title=bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      href="mailto:bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>BobR 
      To: <A 
      title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      
      Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 
      7:08 AM
      Subject: Re: [RT] setups
      
      Here is a rough draft from memory of how I 
      traded it a few years back.  Some may recall statements being posted 
      on rt.
      It is a discretionary, read not proprietary 
      and not coded, system.  Thus it may be difficult to duplicate, but 
      here goes:
      Requires a realtime datafeed, online broker 
      with discount commissions, and realtime OPRA with no funny stuff like BMI 
      used to do with options..Set up a chart with the 5 minute OEX in subgraph 
      one.  TICK in subgraph 2 with 5 lines at zero, +400, -400, +600, 
      -600.  Put the PREM in subgraph3 with the fair value, buy level, sell 
      level lines, updated each day.  The CNBC levels worked good, the 
      w.programtrading levels didn't and seemed to be more useful for breakouts 
      than cycletrading.
      1. Determine the daily trend of the OEX 
      midpoint, or the pivot trend, has it been going up or 
      down. 
      2. Make entries using at the money or one 
      strike out options in the direction of the trend, but make the 
      entries on pullbacks against the trend, thus your entries are in sync 
      with the MM's and not the general public. 
      2a. Trades can be made against the trend with 
      lower expectations of profit.
      3. Apply classical pivots and fib pivots to 
      the OEX. Use a combination of the standard daily pivot and S/R 
      levels along with the FibonacciTrader half range, 0.618 range, range 
      levels for "fuzzy" entry levels, meaning close enough is good 
      enough.  Some days the standard S/R levels are hit and other days the 
      FT levels are dominant.  Seems to very depending on whether everyone 
      is trading or if there is a holiday period coming up or just 
      finishing.
      4. Wait ~30 minutes after the cash open to 
      make the first trade.  
      5. Visualize a time sector at the top of the 
      hour and bottom of the hour(using a circular 12 hour clock).
      6. Enter puts in the time sector 
      at the top of the hour and enter calls in the time sector at the 
      bottom of the hour.  This puts the odds in your favor of being 
      profitable for a short period of time.  You might use a fast 
      oscillator as price approaches an S/R level, I didn't.
      6a. Toggle the bid/ask quotes during the time 
      sector and watch for a change or peak in sentiment.
      7. Monitor the TICK and PREM to determine the 
      quality(inhalation/exhalation) of price trend during those sectors and as 
      confirmation of intraday trend change.  There is a dominant 30 minute 
      half cycle in existance on many days.
         When the power players are in 
      the game, the sector is wide(~+,- 10 minutes) and you can see money 
      coming in and leaving at the top and bottom of the hour plus minus about 
      ten minutes.  When the sector is narrow(~+,-6 minutes) and the prem 
      and tick are inconclusive the trend is weak and there might not be enough 
      followthrough to be profitable.  Put entries on strong 
      bullish days come after the top of the hour, and on weak days the 
      deterioration begins before the top of the hour.  Likewise for calls 
      at the bottom of the hour.
      8. Trade 5 contracts to start with and 
      set a minimum daily goal of $500.
      9. Look for a one point gain from the 
      Ask entry to the Bid exit(only trade long calls and long puts).  Once 
      you get the one point gain, don't give it back.  Move your stop as 
      the option goes more in the money.
      10.  Don't hold overnight, and 
      especially don't hold over weekends or holidays to avoid time decay, 
      volatility change, and premium adjustments.
      11.  Increase the number of contracts as 
      the account grows.
      12.  Don't overtrade, two to four 
      roundtrip trades would not be overtrading.
       That's pretty much it.  Grind it 
      out day after day.  Use stops based on the option premium.  
      Since you are daytrading, time decay will not be significant unless you 
      get into or out of a trade too close to the open or close of the day when 
      they are adjusted.  Be wary of premium changes on Friday close and 
      Monday open.  Thus wait at least 15 to 30 minutes after the open and 
      be careful going into the close.  If the trend is strong 
      and with your trade you can play closer to the close.  This is 
      more significant during expiration week which gives you the best trades 
      because of the gamma effect.  Just be sure you know what you are 
      doing and what the name of the game is.  No doubt there will be 
      controversy about this system, and it could be improved with additional 
      timing tools.
       
      bobr
       
       
      <BLOCKQUOTE 
      style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        <DIV 
        style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
        Ray 
        Raffurty 
        To: <A 
        title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        
        Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 3:08 
        AM
        Subject: Re: [RT] setups
        
        Hi Bob,
         
        You wrote  "<FONT face="Courier New" 
        size=3>I had an options system that could quintuple the account in 5 
        weeks of OEX trading.  It was so boring I quite trading 
        it.
        <FONT face="Courier New" 
        size=3> 
        Sent it to 
        me {;-)
        <FONT face="Courier New" 
        size=3> 
        Good luck 
        and good trading,
        <FONT face="Courier New" 
        size=3> 
        Ray 
        Raffurty
        
        <BLOCKQUOTE 
        style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
          ----- Original Message ----- 
          <DIV 
          style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
          <A title=bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          href="mailto:bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>BobR 
          To: <A 
          title=MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          href="mailto:MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          ; <A title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          
          Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 
          2:19 PM
          Subject: [RT] setups
          OK, this is the setup I am looking at for a long 
          exit/short entry.  Todaymarks the 4th day of a positive NDX 
          net percent up down volume (up -down)/total.  A lower high on 
          the 4th bar of a 4 bar set with a higher highon the NDX may be a 
          prelude to a down day the next day...at least that isthe thesis 
          being examined.  Perhaps it is reinventing the wheel, 
          butdiscovery sure is fun as is the journey.  I had an options 
          system that couldquintuple the account in 5 weeks of OEX 
          trading.  It was so boring I quitetrading it, |;-) 
          .bobrTo unsubscribe from this group, send 
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