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Re: [RT] setups



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I would be the last one to defend all the points of 
the discretionary system I put forward.  The points you make are valid 
today, but perhaps less so some years ago.  Even the point of 
oversimplification is valid, because a lot of the system is unwritten stuff that 
occurs in pattern recognition between the ears.  That is a problem in 
describing a discretionary system, i.e. are all the subjective factors 
included.  Prior to the time of QQQ, NDX options and eminis the B/A spread 
on the OEX was narrower and the liquidity was much higher.  It now has more 
competition from these new entities.  Remember this system was used when 
only the big SNP and Tbonds in the futures category were 
available and was beyond the reach of many traders including me at that 
time, so the OEX was the preferred index vehicle as well as some stock 
options.  Infact the index futures got out of range of even more traders so 
they had to split and also create the eminis.  But even in today's market 
the OEX could be traded with judicious timing, if you look at the daily range 
and pick your entries after a series of narrow range days.  I would agree 
that scalping with OEX, which is what that system did, is not adviseable 
today.  My preferred choice these days is daytrading the eminis and 
position trading the QQQ options.
 
Thanks for the feedback,
bobr
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
  <A title=beeline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  href="mailto:beeline@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>Michael 
  To: <A title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  
  Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 2:26 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [RT] setups
  
  Bobr, thx for the email I trade options (on a non 
  US exchange ) & found your post useful...
    one point I wld take issue with as being a 
  bit simplistic (from my experience) however was point 9...specifically 
  ......
  "Once you get the one point gain, don't give 
  it back.  Move your stop as the option goes more in the 
  money."
   
  This sounds nice in theory, but most here are 
  familiar with the concept of slippage in futures trading ....but in options 
  trading slippage is worse & can be much worse, than that in futures 
  trading in my observations anyway (& more so  in short dated 
  options trading which is what you seem to be recommending 
  here....ie..   "If the trend 
  is strong and with your trade you can play closer to the 
  close.  This is more significant during expiration week which gives you 
  the best trades because of the gamma 
  effect.")
     I 
  realize you were only outlining these pointers from memory of an old system so 
  my comments may be unfair also you are referring to strongly trending issues 
  so this adds to the odds of success for your method & makes 
  slippage less of an issue..but obviously even in strongly trending stocks you 
  do get corrective retraces    ..So I thought it worthwhile 
  pointing out ...also by my penning this email,somebody may be able to show me 
  why slippage is not such a big issue in trading US options trading(I have only 
  traded on the Aust exchange) if so I wld be interested to read the 
  explanation & may switch exchanges if true...but (in my experience)the 
  concept of Implied volatility combined with short dated vehicles...not too 
  mention large spreads in most issues normally can result in very savage 
  pullbacks in the option bid/ask in a v.short time ..if the basis stock has a 
  quick retrace/pullback etc..fwiw.
     Despite these negative issues I 
  still find options trading worthwhile..but I have learnt only to trade 
  sparingly here & when odds are in my favour (I realize your list of rules 
  above were also towards that end btw & I concur ...but thought it 
  worthwhile mentioning one of the negatives that you appeared to oversimplify 
  ..(imo))..I think overall (& I realize this is not a revelation)..but most 
  options trading is more suited to position traders, due to concepts like wide 
  bid/ask spread & other factors some which I have mentioned above 
  while futures more suited to daytrading....But if you feel you have a 
  trading advantage in derivatives ..due to system or whatever I guess that can 
  help to even the score & keep you daytrading options vs 
  futures.
  Thanks
  MichaelO
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
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    ----- Original Message ----- 
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
    <A title=bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    href="mailto:bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>BobR 
    To: <A 
    title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    
    Sent: Wednesday, January 08, 2003 7:08 
    AM
    Subject: Re: [RT] setups
    
    Here is a rough draft from memory of how I 
    traded it a few years back.  Some may recall statements being posted on 
    rt.
    It is a discretionary, read not proprietary and 
    not coded, system.  Thus it may be difficult to duplicate, but here 
    goes:
    Requires a realtime datafeed, online broker 
    with discount commissions, and realtime OPRA with no funny stuff like BMI 
    used to do with options..Set up a chart with the 5 minute OEX in subgraph 
    one.  TICK in subgraph 2 with 5 lines at zero, +400, -400, +600, 
    -600.  Put the PREM in subgraph3 with the fair value, buy level, sell 
    level lines, updated each day.  The CNBC levels worked good, the 
    w.programtrading levels didn't and seemed to be more useful for breakouts 
    than cycletrading.
    1. Determine the daily trend of the OEX 
    midpoint, or the pivot trend, has it been going up or 
    down. 
    2. Make entries using at the money or one 
    strike out options in the direction of the trend, but make the 
    entries on pullbacks against the trend, thus your entries are in sync 
    with the MM's and not the general public. 
    2a. Trades can be made against the trend with 
    lower expectations of profit.
    3. Apply classical pivots and fib pivots to the 
    OEX. Use a combination of the standard daily pivot and S/R levels along 
    with the FibonacciTrader half range, 0.618 range, range levels for "fuzzy" 
    entry levels, meaning close enough is good enough.  Some days the 
    standard S/R levels are hit and other days the FT levels are dominant.  
    Seems to very depending on whether everyone is trading or if there is a 
    holiday period coming up or just finishing.
    4. Wait ~30 minutes after the cash open to make 
    the first trade.  
    5. Visualize a time sector at the top of the 
    hour and bottom of the hour(using a circular 12 hour clock).
    6. Enter puts in the time sector 
    at the top of the hour and enter calls in the time sector at the bottom 
    of the hour.  This puts the odds in your favor of being profitable for 
    a short period of time.  You might use a fast oscillator as price 
    approaches an S/R level, I didn't.
    6a. Toggle the bid/ask quotes during the time 
    sector and watch for a change or peak in sentiment.
    7. Monitor the TICK and PREM to determine the 
    quality(inhalation/exhalation) of price trend during those sectors and as 
    confirmation of intraday trend change.  There is a dominant 30 minute 
    half cycle in existance on many days.
       When the power players are in the 
    game, the sector is wide(~+,- 10 minutes) and you can see money coming 
    in and leaving at the top and bottom of the hour plus minus about ten 
    minutes.  When the sector is narrow(~+,-6 minutes) and the prem and 
    tick are inconclusive the trend is weak and there might not be enough 
    followthrough to be profitable.  Put entries on strong 
    bullish days come after the top of the hour, and on weak days the 
    deterioration begins before the top of the hour.  Likewise for calls at 
    the bottom of the hour.
    8. Trade 5 contracts to start with and set 
    a minimum daily goal of $500.
    9. Look for a one point gain from the Ask 
    entry to the Bid exit(only trade long calls and long puts).  Once you 
    get the one point gain, don't give it back.  Move your stop as the 
    option goes more in the money.
    10.  Don't hold overnight, and especially 
    don't hold over weekends or holidays to avoid time decay, volatility change, 
    and premium adjustments.
    11.  Increase the number of contracts as 
    the account grows.
    12.  Don't overtrade, two to four 
    roundtrip trades would not be overtrading.
     That's pretty much it.  Grind it out 
    day after day.  Use stops based on the option premium.  Since you 
    are daytrading, time decay will not be significant unless you get into or 
    out of a trade too close to the open or close of the day when they are 
    adjusted.  Be wary of premium changes on Friday close and Monday 
    open.  Thus wait at least 15 to 30 minutes after the open and be 
    careful going into the close.  If the trend is strong and 
    with your trade you can play closer to the close.  This is more 
    significant during expiration week which gives you the best trades because 
    of the gamma effect.  Just be sure you know what you are doing and what 
    the name of the game is.  No doubt there will be controversy about this 
    system, and it could be improved with additional timing tools.
     
    bobr
     
     
    <BLOCKQUOTE 
    style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      <DIV 
      style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
      Ray 
      Raffurty 
      To: <A 
      title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      
      Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 3:08 
      AM
      Subject: Re: [RT] setups
      
      Hi Bob,
       
      You wrote  "<FONT face="Courier New" 
      size=3>I had an options system that could quintuple the account in 5 weeks 
      of OEX trading.  It was so boring I quite trading 
      it.
      <FONT face="Courier New" 
      size=3> 
      Sent it to me 
      {;-)
      <FONT face="Courier New" 
      size=3> 
      Good luck and 
      good trading,
      <FONT face="Courier New" 
      size=3> 
      Ray 
      Raffurty
      
      <BLOCKQUOTE 
      style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        ----- Original Message ----- 
        <DIV 
        style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black">From: 
        <A title=bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        href="mailto:bobrabcd@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>BobR 
        To: <A 
        title=MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        href="mailto:MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>MedianLine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        ; <A title=realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        href="mailto:realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>realtraders@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        
        Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2003 
        2:19 PM
        Subject: [RT] setups
        OK, this is the setup I am looking at for a long 
        exit/short entry.  Todaymarks the 4th day of a positive NDX net 
        percent up down volume (up -down)/total.  A lower high on the 
        4th bar of a 4 bar set with a higher highon the NDX may be a prelude 
        to a down day the next day...at least that isthe thesis being 
        examined.  Perhaps it is reinventing the wheel, butdiscovery 
        sure is fun as is the journey.  I had an options system that 
        couldquintuple the account in 5 weeks of OEX trading.  It was 
        so boring I quitetrading it, |;-) 
        .bobrTo unsubscribe from this group, send 
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