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I use PFG Best Direct via their "B" server which is dedicated to the globex
markets like ES & NQ. Their A server handles also these markets and all
open outcry (I just find the B server to be faster for ES/NQ trading).
That said, I would consider the patsystems platform because it offers the
same facilities. Actually it offers more stuff than PFG (like depth of
market etc) but I don't really care about all that. Various brokers offer
patsystems under different names - I guess for marketing reasons to
distinguish them from ther brokers? At PMB you've got "PropTrader". At
Refco you've got "Refco Direct". At the Price Group you've got "J-Trader"
etc. They are all the same thing front-end from the users
perspective. Maybe the back-end technology is different I dunno. If not,
then it probably comes down to which firm has the lowest commission and
best backup support.
S.
At 07:47 AM 11/19/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Of course, that begs the question -- who do you use ? :-)
>
>On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Simon Campbell wrote:
>
>#This depends on the type of online system you use. For myself, I see ZERO
>#slippage on entry because I always use stop-limit orders (same stop & limit
>#price) and get filled 99 times out of a 100. Not all systems offer
>#stop-limit orders. For exiting with profit I use Limit orders (i.e. no
>#slippage) and with loss I use plain stop orders. I occasionally see a tick
>#of slippage on stop orders but most of the time the fill is at my stop price.
>#
>#If you use an online system where stop orders are held on the CME's
>#servers, then slippage is usually minimised because your order is queued
>#and filled according to when it was received. Execution is instantaneous
>#as the price is hit (I often see the fill before my screen shows the
>#quote!). By contrast, if you go with a firm that holds your stop orders
>#locally on their servers (e.g. IB, PMBe), then the order is only released
>#after the stop price is hit i.e. your order gets lowest priority and
>#results in a few seconds extra delay. The potential for slippage on such
>#systems is much higher than systems that let you hold stops at the CME.
>#
>#S.
>#
>#At 08:50 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>#>What kind of slippage do you see on the NQ?
>#>
>#>-----Original Message-----
>#>From: Bob Heisler [mailto:BHEISLER@xxxxxxxxx]
>#>Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 5:31 PM
>#>To: TaoOfDow; Rich Tuchow
>#>Cc: omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx
>#>Subject: Re: Profit Taking --- Round 2 --- Other Alternatives
>#>
>#>
>#>One addition to the Mini thread...take a look at the NQ if you haven't
>#>already done so. I've found the NQ to be greatly preferable to the ES on
>#>most occasions and only trade the ES when I think I have to, and then
>#>grudgingly so. The margin requirements are about the same but the NQ is
>#>normally cleaner, has less noise and trends better - all of which make it
>#>easier to manage a trade.
>#>
>#>It moves about 3 points to every 1 point on the ES right now, so during the
>#>day I am always looking to see if it's easier to get 6 points on the NQ or 2
>#>points on the ES, and in which direction(s). These aren't profit
>#>objectives, just my way of determining which contract is best to trade in
>#>the current environment. Being willing and able to trade both/either can
>#>come in very handy especially on those days where the Dow/Nasdaq diverge
>#>(buy the stronger/sell the weaker). You may also find that the best trading
>#>conditions usually exist when the Nasdaq is leading the charge.
>#>
>#>Bob
>#>
>#>----- Original Message -----
>#>From: "TaoOfDow" <TaoOfDow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>#>To: "Rich Tuchow" <rtuchow@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>#>Cc: <omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx>
>#>Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:22 PM
>#>Subject: Re: Profit Taking --- Round 2 --- Other Alternatives
>#>
>#>
>#> > Dear Rich,
>#> >
>#> > It has been fruitful to me to consider several possibilities that are
>"out
>#>of
>#> > the box" that you have considered --- some of these have been
>mentioned by
>#> > others, notably Ted & Bob.
>#> >
>#> > 1. Trading multiple contracts, each under its own parameters. The
>fellow
>#>in my
>#> > mind most associated with this idea is Joe Ross, of "Ross Hook"
>fame, who
>#> > advocated trading threes: taking one off after making one's commission
>#>expenses;
>#> > the second off after making a few, predetermined number of points;
>and the
>#>last
>#> > off upon hitting a trailing stop set up to catch a substantial move. Ted
>#> > elaborates on this specifically and Bob generally. I recall Bill
>Williams
>#> > saying that his hardest time trading was trading one-lots (and
>secondarily
>#>any
>#> > fixed number of contracts, all or nothing), and I find it emotionally
>#>easier to
>#> > trade several contracts, each with its own rules, than one size all or
>#>nothing.
>#> > That having been said, I find it easier still to trade one size all or
>#>nothing
>#> > very tightly (see #2 below) as well as varying the size of my entry
>#>depending on
>#> > the size of the anticipated move. This is one of these situations like
>#>Justice
>#> > Stewart who in answer to the question, "What is obscenity?" Replied: "I
>#>can't
>#> > give you a definition, but I know it when I see it." I can't give you an
>#> > objective description of "This is the start of a big move." But
>every now
>#>and
>#> > then, something goes off in me when I see something on the screen, and
>#>what goes
>#> > off in me says "Start of big move --- This is an opportunity --- Be
>#>courageous
>#> > --- Don't fuck up and play chicken --- Commit!!!" And for reasons that I
>#>can't
>#> > explain, my feelings more often than not (much more often than not) will
>#>be
>#> > realized. I just wish I had some control over whatever it is that goes
>#>off in
>#> > me. It just happens, often without my expecting it, in fact when I
>#>usually
>#> > least expect it. I've learned that it occurs, if at all, only when I
>have
>#>let
>#> > it go and am not looking for it. For a control freak such as myself who
>#>was
>#> > trained and has worked largely in analytic environments, it has been a
>#>real
>#> > challenge for me to get out of my analytic and into my intuitive. All I
>#>can say
>#> > is that I seem to be more successful as a trader when I rely less on my
>#>analytic
>#> > and more on my intuitive, although this has indeed been a long,
>difficult,
>#>and
>#> > stressful learning experience for me, and I still have much yet to learn
>#>with
>#> > it.
>#> >
>#> > 2. Trading in and out through a move. Bob elaborates on this. The
>great
>#> > majority of my larger "trades" (a la 10-15 point "trades") consist of
>#>multiple,
>#> > smaller trades --- they hit my profit targets, I get out, and look to get
>#>back
>#> > in, just like with a new trade, although in the same direction as the
>#>last. I
>#> > basically don't use stops, especially trailing stops. I get out
>mostly on
>#> > profit targets, a small pullback upon the failure to hit a profit target,
>#>or a
>#> > small gain/loss or scratch following entry. The market does what I
>expect
>#> > (occasionally) or I'm outa' there (much more often than I would
>prefer ---
>#>God I
>#> > ain't). Bob has some cogent comments about this, which reduce down
>for me
>#>to
>#> > "Plan your trades, and trade your plan." I can guarantee you that when I
>#>start
>#> > messin' with my plan during the day, generally as a result of my
>#>perception of
>#> > what has transpired for better or worse with my trading earlier that day,
>#>I am
>#> > colluding with my own prospective failure. For me at least, I just don't
>#>have
>#> > what it takes to both think and trade, and when I try to do both, I shoot
>#>myself
>#> > in the foot and will soon (altogether too soon) regret my extravagance.
>#>Another
>#> > lesson that has been hard for me to accept, and I'm still working on it.
>#> >
>#> > 3. Trading selected hours. In my experience, there is more opportunity
>#>for
>#> > profits available for trading during the first and last hour or two
>of the
>#> > market day than during the middle of the day (the "noon balloon"). No
>#>wonder,
>#> > all you have to do is spend a day or two on the floor and watch its
>#>population
>#> > fluctuate during the day. It's packed at the open, and after an hour or
>#>two,
>#> > sometimes you could roll a bowling ball from from one side to the other
>#>and not
>#> > hit anyone. Then the guys come back from lunch for the last hour or two
>#>before
>#> > "quittin' time." If I were looking for larger moves, these would be the
>#>times
>#> > that I would look for them.
>#> >
>#> > 4. Trading selected days. In my experience, it pays to be at my desk
>#> > especially on Mondays and Fridays as opposed to other days of the week
>#>(Goldspan
>#> > days excepted, among others). If I were looking for larger moves, these
>#>(and
>#> > Greenspan days, among others) would be the days that I would look for
>#>them.
>#> >
>#> > 5. Developing ways to discern, upon the initiation of a move,
>whether the
>#>move
>#> > will peter out after 3-5 points or extend further.
>#> >
>#> > 6. Developing ways to discern, after a move has gone 3-5 points, whether
>#>it
>#> > will now peter out or extend further.
>#> >
>#> > Frankly, I find entries more problematic than exits. The exits just seem
>#>to pop
>#> > out at me. It's the entries that I struggle with. I continue to attempt
>#>on
>#> > entry to buy the bottom tick or two or sell the top tick or two. I gotta
>#>get
>#> > over that. I'm driving myself nuts with it.
>#> >
>#> > Lastly, I was surprised to read that you identified yourself as "an S&P
>#>...
>#> > trader", in the sense that I was surprised to read that you are trading
>#>the S&P
>#> > and curious why you had not switched to the S&P E-mini. I guess I am
>#>going to
>#> > expose my naivity and ignorance here. In my experience, my (what I have
>#>come to
>#> > see as a long overdue) shift from trading the S&P to the S&P E-mini has
>#>been
>#> > nothing but positive. Perhaps you trade much more size that I or have
>#>other
>#> > reasons for doing so. Although I traded very little, I used to trade the
>#>S&P
>#> > through a commercial/wholesale desk that routinely traded 100s and
>#>occasionally
>#> > 1000s (I can remember standing in back of the head of the trading desk
>#>when he
>#> > sold 1000, old $500 contracts during a fast market down and his worst
>fill
>#>was
>#> > half a point off his desired price) --- my max was 10-lots, which was
>#>very, very
>#> > seldom; my usual was onesies and, if I was really feeling my cojones,
>#>twosies.
>#> > That desk gave me what seemed to me to be great service at reasonable
>#>rates
>#> > ($17/car). To my surprise and increasing pleasure, all in all (speed,
>#> > commissions, fills, relative absence of human interaction, etc.), I have
>#>come to
>#> > prefer my experience with the E-mini and electronic trading relative to
>#>open
>#> > outcry trading. Would you be willing to tell me what keeps you trading
>#>the S&P
>#> > as opposed to the E-mini? Maybe you are a member or a lessee?
>#> >
>#> > Sincerely,
>#> >
>#> > Richard
>#> >
>#> >
>#> > Rich Tuchow wrote:
>#> >
>#> > > I am an S&P day trader and keep going back and forth in my mind my exit
>#> > > strategy. There are 2 schools of thought 1)let profits run 2)don't try
>#>to
>#> > > be a pig on every trade. It seems that every time I grab the 3-5 point
>#> > > profit the trade goes on to 10-15 points and every time I let profits
>#>run,
>#> > > the 3-5 point profit disappears. I am not particularly found of
>#>trailing
>#> > > stops because you have to be willing to give back a fair amount of
>#>profit.
>#> > > Others use a staggered exit strategy such as take 1 contract off at 3
>#>points
>#> > > another at 5 another at 8 etc.
>#> > >
>#> > > I would be interested in hearing only from successful S&P day traders
>#>which
>#> > > school of thought they follow.
>#> > >
>#> > > Thanks
>#> >
>#
>#
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