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My broker accepts STOP,LIMIT and MARKET orders on the E mini.
Rich Davidson
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> From: Timothy Morge <tmorge@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: Manning Stoller <mstoller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: IdontgetNo@xxxxxxx; Omega-list@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Fwd: Trade mini instead if regular S&P
> Date: Monday, June 15, 1998 10:39 AM
>
> Manning:
>
> Again, I am not implying you have a hidden agenda or that you aren't a
good
> broker. And I even agree that there are people that might benefit from
using the
> E*minis versus the full S&P contract. But I thought the hype about
electronic
> trading had far surpassed the truth and some facts needed to be stated.
These
> facts need to be taken into consideration before someone decides the
E*mini is
> better or worse for them to trade. The most important fact facing an
E*mini
> trader is that you cannot use STOPS! And 'at the market' execution cannot
be
> untilized. I understand that changes in the orders allowed by the
exchange may
> bring these order types to the E*mini markets. But until they are
available to
> E*mini traders, trading E*minis when you have access to a good broker
that has
> floor access makes no sense.
>
> And until full electronic trading is implemented, E*mini traders need to
realize
> that they are at the mercy of the locals that 'arb' their orders from the
> electronic trading consoles to the pits. In other words, until *all* of
us trade
> during the day using the same electronic system, those that choose to
trade
> electronically will be at a disadvantage. E*minis trade at the mercy of
the full
> contract S&P...their price action follows, not leads.
>
> So if I trade a two lot in the normal S&Ps, and my broker charges me $18
a round
> turn, it would normally cost me fives time that, or $180 a round turn to
trade
> 10 E*minis versus $36 a round turn to trade 2 S&Ps. And if I trade the 10
> E*minis instead of trading the 2 S&Ps, I cannot use stop loss orders or
'at the
> market' orders trading electronically. This makes no sense. It costs me
more, if
> I have a good broker the fills will be worse for the E*minis, and I can't
use
> good money management or exit/entry techniques.
>
> I don't have an agenda. I just think people should think through some of
the
> things that are proposed and see the fault of the logic. E*minis are good
NOW if
> you have a very small account and you can't or don't want to trade a full
S&P
> contract. They will be better in the future for more of us.
>
> Tim Morge
>
> Manning Stoller wrote:
> >
> > Dear Tim,
> >
> > I do trade directly to the floor as you do but I was responding to the
1 or 2 lot
> > full size trader, not the size trader.
> > I have a strong feeling that there are many smaller size traders on the
list and was
> > responding to them in my comments about the mini.
> > I have no "angle" and no hidden agenda.
> >
> > Manning Stoller
> >
> > Timothy Morge wrote:
> >
> > > Folks on the list:
> > >
> > > I have no bones to pick with vendors or electronic trading fans or
pit traders
> > > or brokers. If you've read the lists lately, you know I feel the pit
traders and
> > > pit brokers at the exchanges have led the parade for the move to
fully
> > > implemented electronic trading. I'll be sad when the open outcry
stops, but I'll
> > > be a happier trader.
> > >
> > > HOWEVER...For any broker to tell this list or any other list that on
a
> > > consistent basis, you can or will get better fills, faster fills,
better
> > > service, faster service is just plain hype. At the moment, electronic
trading is
> > > a good venue for traders that have a smaller account and cannot find
a full
> > > service broker that allows them pit access. By pit access, I mean
that when *I*
> > > trade the S&Ps, I dial using my speed dialer. A floor clerk AT THE
S&P PIT picks
> > > up the phone and answers quoting the current bid and ask of the front
month S&P
> > > contract before even saying hello. I say, 'Hi, it's Tim...buy XX Sep
S&Ps
> > > market,' and they flash that order into the pit, all the while
quoting me the
> > > current prices, then tell me my fill. I am answered and filled in
less time than
> > > it takes for an electronic order to hit the electronic pad in the pit
and get
> > > picked up. And this talk of 'better fills' on the electronic
services...sorry,
> > > it just isn't so. If you are getting poor service from your broker,
change
> > > brokers. Don't just listen to some guy with a vested interest tell
you that all
> > > your problems will be answered if you just switch to his new doodad.
> > >
> > > And if the market is less orderly, you can bet my fill will be faster
and the
> > > service better.
> > >
> > > As I said, the day for electronic trading in all the pits is near.
But until
> > > it's implemented, please don't make these wild claims about
electronic trading.
> > > It doesn't help the electronic trading cause, because people try it
and find the
> > > unrealistic claims are just that: Unrealistic. Saying that you will
get better
> > > fills and better service using electronic services on the Merc and
CBOT right
> > > now is like saying you'll get better fills and service using the
Mid-Am currency
> > > contracts instead of the IMM full currency contracts.
> > >
> > > And similarly, you WILL be paying the extra brokerage if you trade
the E-minis,
> > > although apparently some brokers will lower their 'low' commisions if
you switch
> > > over to trade electronically with them. But what rates are they
charging? Again,
> > > I have no complaints with any brokers--many of my friends are
brokers. But when
> > > someone claims they will only charge you half the brokerage fees to
trade
> > > E*minis through them, you had better check their rates relative to
other brokers
> > > offering accounts of your size similar service. Remember!! It costs a
broker the
> > > same per contract to clear one E*mini as it does to clear one S&P
contract. So
> > > their costs are literally five times higher for clearing five E-minis
versus
> > > clearing one S&P.
> > >
> > > Last, the E-minis are the tale and the S&Ps are the dog. Currently,
you can't
> > > get out of your E*mini electronically on a stop. Nor can you enter or
exit 'at
> > > the market.' When you visit the S&P pits, you can see the thirty or
so people
> > > that huddle around the E-mini quote stations and arbitrage the orders
that are
> > > sent to those machines from the brokers off of the exchange floor.
Those locals
> > > are not going to take the orders off of those machines and fill them
UNLESS they
> > > are able to make money. That's why they call it arbitrage.
> > >
> > > Tim Morge
> > >
> > > IdontgetNo@xxxxxxx wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: Trade mini instead if regular S&P
> > > > Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:46:55 EDT
> > > > From: IdontgetNo@xxxxxxx
> > > > To: mstoller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > Well I don't know which company your with or from what angle your
coming from
> > > > but the mini's can never compare to the pit trading. Many times the
mini will
> > > > print a new low but the big ones never will. Speed? I can place an
order for
> > > > my clients faster than any computer terminal can. Oh and yes I get
my fills
> > > > right away. Maybe that's a specialty that I have obtained after
being in this
> > > > business for 15 years but you must be doing something right if your
around
> > > > this long.
> > > >
> > > > Morris
>
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