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How do I separate myself???



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Michael, I like your plan!!! Where do you put 
the money that you don't trade? Don't mean to be personal but that may be the 
key to unraveling the use of tools to 'play with' versus using tools to 'get 
rich'.
 
I would like to follow your lead but don't have 
the answers as to where to put the money that I need for income and other 
retirement needs.
 
Thanks,
Gene
 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <A 
href="mailto:mslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx"; title=mslist@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>michael 

To: <A href="mailto:metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx"; 
title=metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: Advanced Get versus MetaStock

I'm 
afraid I don't agree that Art is just an exceptional skill.  Art is 
emotional as much as skill.  TA is business.  How do I separate 
myself???  When I started trading I took my allotted money and had a small 
goodbye ceremony.  I told myself and my spouse that it was gone.  I 
never added or subtracted to it, it's just gone. I don't depend on it for income 
and I am not counting on it for retirement or anything else.
<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> 
My 
philosophy is to let the other guy make the emotional mistakes.  TA and 
trading in general is business.  One list writer recently said that he 
didn't go long the market because he doesn't work anymore even though his system 
gave him a bull signal.  That was an emotional decision.  My systems 
work.  I know they work because I have tested them and proven them with my 
own cash.  They are based on sound fundamental reasoning.  One 
of the systems I use said to buy at the money OEX index puts 
on OCT 3rd and sell it on OCT 13.  It then said to buy another put on the 
morning of the 17th and sell in the morning of the 18th.  I am now as of 
this morning long OEX options.   Needless to say I've had a great 
month.  And I didn't have to make any emotional decisions because the money 
is gone.  I should also mention that after 2 years the dissapearing money 
is up 600+ percent.  The funny thing is I have lost more than I've 
won.  But I know how to manage losers and let my profits 
run.
<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> 
While 
I would love to take credit for the systems I can't.  I owe most of it 
to Don Fishback.  I can take credit for learning the methods 
and for having rid myself of the emotional baggage that may have swayed me 
away from huge gains.
<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> 
I 
won't disagree that money management has a great deal to do with it... but even 
money management can be effected by emotional decisions if you let it.  

<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> 
<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2>Michael
<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
size=2> 
<FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----From: owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
[mailto:owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Giancarlo 
GaydouSent: Friday, October 20, 2000 10:51 AMTo: 
metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: RE: Advanced Get versus 
MetaStockMichael,          
how can you be so sure to be absolutely free from yourself (psyche & body 
influence each other), I would say that I'm alwaysworking to better tune 
this independence, and I'm learning to "find" the right tools to reach the goal, 
right for me perhaps not for another.But I repeat Money + Risk / 
Management are the best tools I've found up-today.Art is a synonym of 
superior skill  - or better: the superior ability that is attained by study 
and practice and observation (Webster),but if you like I'll call it just 
skill.ggAt 08:24 AM 20/10/2000 -0400, you wrote:<FONT 
color=#0000ff face=arial size=2>
I agree that TA is not an art.  Art suggest 
  conveying feelings and emotions.  Many of us know that if you have either 
  of these things in your trading, you will make irrational decisions.  TA 
  is a skill.  You must learn how to read the numbers and determine 
  sentiement from them. <FONT color=#0000ff face=arial 
  size=2>Michael-----Original 
  Message-----From: owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<A 
  href="mailto:owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5DOn"; 
  eudora="autourl">mailto:owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]<A 
  href="mailto:owner-metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx%5DOn"; eudora="autourl">On 
  Behalf Of Giancarlo GaydouSent: Friday, October 20, 2000 5:55 
  AMTo: metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxxSubject: Re: Advanced Get 
  versus MetaStockAt 02:32 AM 20/10/2000 +0100, you 
  wrote:
  A childs dream is easely full filled. 
  gg>  at last!! we know the reason of your 
  satisfaction about your trading methods, even if from the Ph of your 
  mails        nobody would tell.
  It's the hard-core TA that 
    we're after, not softies stuff.gg> sounds like the 
  epic side of TA.
  TA is NOT an art !!!!. If your 
    aim is also to get right to the scientifical (and therefore evidential) 
    bottom of it.gg> if you bother yourself to read my 
  mail there was something about 8th grade math,  8th grade math doesn't 
  mean the math      for 13 years old school boys, 
  ask around and you'll have a long way to go in front of you, long enough to 
  forget the "Fibonacci /      Bartjens / Gann / 
  Elliott" stuff. If you don't get there TA it is an ART because in TA there is 
  nothing scientifically sound or proved,      you 
  play with probabilities, the only edge that you have is: 
        Q - how many times in the past there was a 
  scenario like this one ?      A - 20 times in 10 
  years of data.      Q - what was the behavior of 
  price the following day (W/M/Y) ?      A - 13 
  times went up and 7 times went down.      
  Decision: since the probabilities are on the up side (and my assessment of the 
  scenario with the help of what ever oscillators 
  /      indicators / levels / cycles / moon / sun 
  it's positive) I'll go long.      Can't see 
  anything difficult there, what is really difficult it's to apply stop loss and 
  risk / money management in a MATHEMATICALLY      
  sound way so to end up making money, but the scientifically sound is the 
  risk/money management not TA, and the decision to 
  go      long/short it is SUBJECTIVE, so it has 
  only to do with your sensibility in assessing that 13 Vs. 7 today is a good 
  edge.     Some 
  readings:      Pole, West, and Harrison 
  (1994), Applied Bayesian Forecasting and Time Series Analysis. (Chapman 
  & Hall),       Harvey (1989), Forecasting, 
  Structural Time Series and the Kalman Filter. (Cambridge University Press) 
        Box and Jenkins (1976), Time Series 
  Analysis, Forecasting and Control. (Holden-Day) 
        The first is on Bayesian DLM models, second 
  is on structural models, and third on classical ARIMA approach. For a recent 
  survey       of stationary econometric models you 
  could check Clements and Hendry (1998), Forecasting Economic Time 
  Series.       (Cambridge University Press). 
            
  The Bartjens mails+links that 
    have been posted:"Subject: 
    Bartjens                                
    Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 17:47:04""Subject: Re: 
    Bartjens                          
    Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 03:16:11""Subject: Re: 
    Bartjens                          
    Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 00:52:56""Subject: Re: What options to 
    sell?       Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 
    01:02:17" Must have been posted in one of that 
    long lasting phases, periods of months in a row, when the List is 
    moreof an old ladies Chat box instead then that it is used as 
    what it was set out to be: a MSK or TA discussioning List.(reason you 
    probably missed the posts !!!).gg> certainly your posts on 
  the subject didn't stir lots of enthusiastic replays, why not try posting some 
  recipes of Dutch's       baked goods or 
  knitworks.Have a nice timegg
  Regards,Ton Maas<A 
    href="mailto:ms-irb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>ms-irb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxDismiss 
    the ".nospam" bit (including the dot) when replying.Homepage  <A 
    href="http://home.planet.nl/~anthmaas";>http://home.planet.nl/~anthmaas 
      
      
        ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- 
        Van: Giancarlo 
        Gaydou 
        Aan: <A 
        href="mailto:metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
        Verzonden: donderdag 19 oktober 2000 12:16 
        Onderwerp: Re: Advanced Get versus MetaStock
        Poor Mr. Fibonacci, (that's the right spelling) 
        he's certainly turning around in his grave, let him RIP.
        He didn't know that his theory one day was to be used in TA by 
        traders, neither he knew that close enough won't be just good 
        enough.
        I guess that if you would spend a little more time to explain the 
        theory of Mr. Bartjens, maybe only mailing the links were some 
        documentation could be found, we all may become Mr. Bartjens' 
        fans.
        For the little that I've learned the boys that crunch 8th grade math 
        do have a fair edge on markets, but from what they say they are happy 
        to be "close enough".
        FWIW, in this list many good traders have already explained 
        that:
        "No indicator, no oscillator, no FIB's, or what else, works unless 
        you develop the right feeling about it, but once you have the 
        feeling anything works"
        and to me that mean: Holy Grails & Hens of the Golden Eggs, if 
        they exists, are well secured in armoured safes, not sold in the shops 
        for little or big monies. 
        Beside the above another good remark was mailed here:
        "TA it's an ART not an exact science"
        and to me that mean: Everybody can buy a fiddle "but" (VB BUT) only 
        "few" (VB FEW) will be able to master it,  a pennywhistle may 
        be too much for many.
        I'm not so fond of the Fibonacci's theory but some times have found 
        it "just good enough" because it was "close enough" even closer 
        than other tools, but always "after" because I don't have particular 
        feelings about it.
        gg
        At 02:26 AM 19/10/2000 +0100, you wrote: 
        
          Thanks for your contribution. It will be most helpfull to the 
          many. 
          There are many ways that can lead one to the room of glory. 

          Even the monkeys are capable to make money throwing darts. No big 
          deal in that !!!. 
          The incorrect Fibionancy-myth of  "figures being relational 
          to one another" has indeed here on 
          the List been unraffled before, including that of the further 
          man-made-ajointed myth of 
          "mother nature wonders", that either would be caused by it or that 
          would be related to the myth. 
          The Mr. W. Bartjens Law shows a straight out correct relation 
          between the standard figures-set 
          that was first introduced in the 10 Century, a set that today is 
          still in use, and the Cyfferringe 
          (that is the Law) also shows WHY the figures are TRUELY related. 
          
          The modern day Decimal** system, that is directly based on the 
          standard figures-set, provides 
          -along with its Fractals-  the natural relation and rythem 
          between figures. 
          Apart from the Decimal system being the natural related figures, 
          it also has a  -now TRUE fair 
          dinkom evidentual-  influencial effect on humans on this 
          globe that are all using it. Easely the 
          humans then refer to "halves", "thirds", "quarters" and "tenths" 
          of something : 
              -"Oh it only costs halve the original price" 
              -"Profits have rissen one thirds compared to 
          last year" 
              -"The quarterly figures are............" 
              -"It's only roughly been a ten percent 
          increase{rise}". 
          Check the levels derived from splitting "a whole" 100 into the 
          Decimalic Fractals and then compare to 
          and find that the from the Fibionancy-myth calculated ones then 
          "only come close to". 
          That explains too why one can make money from the Natural Human 
          support and resistances found 
          at the above mentioned Fractal levels. 
          That the Fibionancy-myth calculations then only can come close to 
          is perhaps benificial to you, but 
          they are not ever based on the mentioned "natural, relational, 
          logical, scientifical or on any other fact" 
          that the myth also tries out everyone to believe. 
          Check out the previous sent Bartjens mail(s) <FONT 
          size=2>to find the 1st Group and mail showing why they are 
          related. 
          Check the previous sent Fractals Retracements mail(s) to find the 
          Natural Human support + resistance 
          levels equivelant for the financial markets. 
          Then compare results to the Fibionancy-myth and the myth 
          is straight out unraffled. 
          Now place the Fractal Retracements on your Charts and see why they 
          work, and why the Fibionancies 
          can only come close to, eg naturaly, since that they are not 
          "natural, relational, logical, scientifical or 
          on any other fact"-based or related. 
          I will let you have the NEXT month to work this all out and expect 
          you to report back to the List with 
          example Charts holding the BASED ON FACTS Natural Human support 
          & resistance levels. 
          Then if you like, you may still post comparisson results of your 
          beloved Fibionancy vs the above. 
          Doubt that anyone is interested in them after seeing both 
          versions, eg after they have seen 
          "the Humans have prooven their point" Fractal retracements. <FONT 
          size=2>
          Oh, I forgot, seeing your mail's reference to you trading 
          Fibionancy as your major trading tool making 
          50 or 100 trades/month (that would be only 900 (75*12) 
          trades/yearly !!!!!!!!!) now let me refer to some 
          of my previously sent stunning trade example mails. 
          I only trade 50 or 100 trades/year (!!!!!) , most of the time 
          less, to achieve my bâ ¬loved goal$, and do 
          so trading REAL TA-tools. 
          ** Decimal system: 
              ------------------------- 
          Group 1 are the figures 1 up to 9 and where the 0 is niks, nada. 
          Group 2 are the follow up to 9 figures 10 to 19 
          Group 3 are the follow up to 10 figures 20 to 29 
          etcetera etcetera. 
          Regards, 
          Ton Maas 
          <A 
          href="mailto:ms-irb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx";>ms-irb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          Dismiss the ".nospam" bit (including the dot) when replying. 
          Homepage  <A 
          href="http://home.planet.nl/~anthmaas";>http://home.planet.nl/~anthmaas 

          ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht ----- 
          Van: Joe Duffy 
          Aan: <A 
          href="mailto:metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx";>metastock@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
          Verzonden: woensdag 18 oktober 2000 13:40 
          Onderwerp: Re: Advanced Get versus MetaStock<FONT 
          face=arial>
          
            A.J. Maas wrote; 
            now based on the Fibionancy-myth, a myth that here 
            on the List also has been unraffled before. 
            ================================= 
            I guess I have read the above from you once to often, so I will 
            comment. You may not be able to make money using Fibonacci. That has 
            no relation to its use in trading. 
            I use Fibonacci as my major trading tool. I make 50 to 100 
            trades per month. I am willing to post a monthly statement, from 
            NEXT month if you like. If my Fibonacci based trades make money, you 
            can submit a $1K check to my favorite charity. If they don't, I will 
            submit one to yours.