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O.K mate.
--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Dennis Brown <see3d@xxx> wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
> My apologies for being brusk. I was in an frustrated mood this morning.
>
> I hope you found the other information useful.
>
> Best regards,
> Dennis
>
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 6:01 PM, brian_z111 wrote:
>
> >> You seem to be spouting a lot about things you know little about as
> >> >if
> >> you were an authority.
> >
> >
> > I don't appreciate being spoken to like that.
> >
> > I understand perfectly well thanks but if you want to 'play the man'
> > to win the day?
> >
> >> Please, a little more humility in such
> >> matters.
> >
> > I don't find any use for false humility.
> >
> > If I go away and get a masters degree in IT and learn several
> > languages will I be allowed to have an opinion then?
> >
> > I don't think you read my posts carefully.
> >
> > BTW Tomasz ..... it doesn't follow that because I am discussing
> > something in the forum that I am campaining for a feature i.e. that
> > I want something .... I may just enjoying some discussion or sharing
> > a point of view with others.
> >
> >
> > I don't find VarSet compact and the easiest possible way or == a
> > suite of array functions but I might be wrong!
> >
> > I don't find that it is explained fully in the manual either ...
> > which is when it becomes quirky ... but I might be wrong on that
> > point too!
> >
> >
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Dennis Brown <see3d@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Brian,
> >>
> >> You seem to be spouting a lot about things you know little about as
> >> if
> >> you were an authority. Please, a little more humility in such
> >> matters. A true general purpose "Matrix" language with true matrix
> >> operations would be found in the language "APL" (A Programming
> >> Language) or "J". Read about this, right down to the operator
> >> definitions, and you will understand. BTW, APL was the first "true"
> >> programming language I learned in 1969 (I don't count a programmable
> >> calculator I first used at my work).
> >>
> >> http://www.sigapl.org/
> >> http://www.jsoftware.com/
> >>
> >> Arrays in most languages are simple indexing of data cells like in a
> >> spreadsheet. The types of simple operations in a spreadsheet formula
> >> are easily done with loops in a general purpose language by indexing
> >> 1, 2, or more indexes. True matrix operations are a completely
> >> different bag.
> >>
> >> AFL arrays are specific implementations for processing time series
> >> data associated with equities. They are not general purpose and were
> >> never intended to be, though it is possible to hijack them for some
> >> general purpose things (which I do) if you understand the limitations
> >> --like automatic sizing.
> >>
> >> I fully support your general intensions of wanting to see more
> >> general
> >> and special purpose operations in AFL, that make it easier to
> >> implement a variety of solutions associated with equity evaluation
> >> and
> >> trading. Tomasz has added these things over time as their value
> >> becomes clear. I feel that AFL is one of AmiBroker's most valuable
> >> competitive advantages in the marketplace. IMHO, enhancing AFL to
> >> provide more control of a variety of low and high level functions
> >> should be a high priority. And in keeping with current themes,
> >> finding a way to teach non-programmers how to become AFL programmers
> >> should be a very high priority. It seems there is more desire to
> >> learn AFL than understanding of how to proceed with that education.
> >> AFL is actually a good language to learn programming for the first
> >> time. It hides many low level operation and syntax requirements so
> >> that the user can concentrate more on the problem rather than the
> >> process of programming.
> >>
> >> There have been books written as an introduction to programming using
> >> simple languages like BASIC. Following the general progression of
> >> such a book, but substituting AFL as the language, is what is perhaps
> >> missing.
> >>
> >> For a non-programmer. Learning several languages to be able to
> >> program their systems is too much to ask. Having all the needed
> >> elements for even advanced system development contained within an AFL
> >> "wrapper" is in my opinion a superior approach for the benefit of AB
> >> users coming up the AFL learning curve.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Dennis
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 24, 2009, at 9:27 AM, brian_z111 wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Tomasz,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for your educational post, I thoroughly enjoyed it.
> >>>
> >>> Quirky != bad;
> >>>
> >>> (some people like quirkiness ... like Bob Dylan in his song "Simple
> >>> Twist of Fate")
> >>>
> >>> Of course I am just giving an opinion from my perspective
> >>> (personal).
> >>>
> >>> Re your points:
> >>>
> >>> C language - I was just quoting from one of your posts .... I should
> >>> have given the link because you did include some context
> >>>
> >>> http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/message/135059
> >>>
> >>>> As for "matrix" operations - that this does not belong to the
> >>>>> definition of any general purpose language.
> >>>
> >>> I did a little bit of reading on 'languages that have array
> >>> functions' when we had a short discussion on array programming
> >>> before and found this link:
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_languages_(array)
> >>>
> >>> (it comes from the Wikipedia array page)
> >>>
> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Array
> >>>
> >>> As I said, there is no point in comparing AFL to a GP language ....
> >>> it is quirky to me that AFL is an array language and doesn't have a
> >>> full suite of array functions .... perhaps other languages that are
> >>> intended to handle price arrays etc would be a better comparison.
> >>>
> >>>> Having said that, for anyone needing multiple dimensional arrays in
> >>>> AFL there are several options:
> >>>
> >>>> a) use VarGet/VarSet (the 2-dim array is simply array of the array,
> >>>> so for N:M 2-dim array you need N AFL arrays)
> >>>> b) using embedded JScript parts with AFL
> >>>> c) using free open source Osaka plugin (you can extend it to your
> >>>> needs since all sources are available)
> >>>> d) using any external COM object (written in VB for example if you
> >>>> need that)
> >>>
> >>> Except for a) none of these meet the criteria of "Native" to the
> >>> language (AFL)
> >>>
> >>> VarGet/VarSet can hardly be described as a suite of array functions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Neither a, b, c or d achieve your own stated objective:
> >>>
> >>>> SIMPLICITY OF USE plus compactness of code is the paramount design
> >>>>> decision.
> >>>
> >>>> The database is exposed in two ways:
> >>>> First (more general)
> >>>> full OLE read/write direct access to the database - see Stocks/
> >>>> Stock/Quotations/Quotation objects:
> >>>> http://www.amibroker.com/guide/objects.html
> >>>> - and this OLE interface is DIRECTLY available from AFL level.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That is very good for developers/instutions and the handful of
> >>> traders who want to write their own trading program built around AB.
> >>>
> >>> Hardly what the average trader wants to have to do before they can
> >>> start trading.
> >>>
> >>> Anyway, all of this could be done much easier from within AFL using
> >>> AFL functions .... there is no need at all to use OLE for this type
> >>> of thing .... it seems like overkill to me for a simple array
> >>> processing language.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Second (easier)
> >>>> AddToComposite/Foreign - gives you easy to use way to STORE and
> >>>>> READ from the AmiBroker database.
> >>>
> >>> ATC is time dependent ... when timeframe compression is used it
> >>> starts to become quirky and that is just the beginning.
> >>>
> >>> Once again hardly a substitute for a full suite of native database
> >>> functions.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello,
> >>>>
> >>>> There are several misconceptions in what was written here.
> >>>> AFL is specifically designed to protect the newbie and people
> >>>> without coding experience
> >>>> from programming stuff like memory allocation/deallocation, pointer
> >>>> manipulation,
> >>>> declarations, type casting, etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> So although it looks like C it is way more easy than C.
> >>>>
> >>>> What is single operator in AFL (like array addition) involves many
> >>>> line of code in C
> >>>> plus memory allocation/deallocation (and keeping track on all
> >>>> that).
> >>>>
> >>>> SIMPLICITY OF USE plus compactness of code is the paramount design
> >>>> decision.
> >>>> That's why arrays in AFL are automatically managed, have size that
> >>>> automatically
> >>>> refers to "visible" area, so you can simply add arrays with single
> >>>> + operator.
> >>>>
> >>>> With general purpose C language with "normal" arrays you would need
> >>>> to manage memory for arrays by yourself,
> >>>> alignment (if size differs which elements to add), looping (you
> >>>> need to perform calculations
> >>>> on individual elements of array).
> >>>> (maybe you don't know but in C and there are no built-in dynamic
> >>>> arrays, only fixed compile-time size is supported,
> >>>> and dynamic array is implemented via pointers and explicit memory
> >>>> allocation malloc/free)
> >>>>
> >>>> As for "matrix" operations - that this does not belong to the
> >>>> definition of any general purpose language.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are no "matrix" operations in any popular general purpose
> >>>> language C/C++/Java/JScript/Basic/Pascal.
> >>>>
> >>>> In C/C++ even scalar trigonometric operations like sin( x) or
> >>>> string concatenation are NOT part of the language.
> >>>>
> >>>> The language itself defines:
> >>>> a) syntax
> >>>> b) basic arithmetic operators + precedence working on primitive
> >>>> types only (scalar integer and/or float)
> >>>> c) flow control (conditional execution, loops)
> >>>> d) structural concepts (variables/functions/procedures/structures/
> >>>> objects)
> >>>> e) some miscellaneous stuff like run-time type info, exception
> >>>> handling etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> And that's it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anything more is supplied by LIBRARIES. In C there is a library for
> >>>> basic string manipulation (such as concatenation
> >>>> - strcat) or floating point. The same with any high-level stuff
> >>>> like matrices - this is the area which
> >>>> is implemented by EXTERNAL libraries (not part of the language).
> >>>> Libraries in AFL can be provided by:
> >>>> a) #include - the AFL code implementing features via functions
> >>>> b) AmiBroker Development Kit - allowing to write extensions
> >>>> (functions) as a DLL in any compiled language.
> >>>> c) JScript/VBScript
> >>>> d) any external COM object http://www.amibroker.com/guide/a_aflcom.html
> >>>>
> >>>> This covers any imaginable application and any imaginable need you
> >>>> may have.
> >>>>
> >>>> Having said that, for anyone needing multiple dimensional arrays in
> >>>> AFL there are several options:
> >>>> a) use VarGet/VarSet (the 2-dim array is simply array of the array,
> >>>> so for N:M 2-dim array you need N AFL arrays)
> >>>> b) using embedded JScript parts with AFL
> >>>> c) using free open source Osaka plugin (you can extend it to your
> >>>> needs since all sources are available)
> >>>> d) using any external COM object (written in VB for example if you
> >>>> need that)
> >>>>
> >>>> If anyone is "advanced enough" to need multiple dimensional arrays,
> >>>> it is also "advanced enough" to use these options
> >>>> without any trouble.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Also with regards to:
> >>>>> - some of the architecture of AB is quirky also e.g. essentially
> >>>>> it is a database, at the binary level, but you can't write
> >>>>> directly to the native database
> >>>> That is entirely not true.
> >>>> The database is exposed in two ways:
> >>>> First (more general)
> >>>> full OLE read/write direct access to the database - see Stocks/
> >>>> Stock/Quotations/Quotation objects:
> >>>> http://www.amibroker.com/guide/objects.html
> >>>> - and this OLE interface is DIRECTLY available from AFL level.
> >>>>
> >>>> Second (easier)
> >>>> AddToComposite/Foreign - gives you easy to use way to STORE and
> >>>> READ from the AmiBroker database.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> Tomasz Janeczko
> >>>> amibroker.com
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "brian_z111" <brian_z111@>
> >>>> To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:46 AM
> >>>> Subject: [amibroker] Re: AFL 101
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> My perspective as a newcomer to programming when I started into
> >>>>> AB/
> >>>>> AFL around 2-3 years ago:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Tomasz says that AB is most like C
> >>>>> - primarily one has to learn AFL fullstop
> >>>>> - experienced programmers sometimes have to unlearn somethings and
> >>>>> find this hard to do for a while
> >>>>> - in some ways programming naivity paid off for me as I am at home
> >>>>> with array programming
> >>>>> - in other places I am lost because nothing can fill the missing
> >>>>> link of not being familiar with syntax that is common to other
> >>>>> languages (called experience)
> >>>>> - AFL is quirky ..... some things that intuitively and logically
> >>>>> seem needed are 'missing' and then you have to work around that
> >>>>> e.g. IMO it is bizarre that AFL has been around for many years but
> >>>>> doesn't have dynamic arrays or matrix functions ... the quirky
> >>>>> aspects of AFL make it extremely difficult for lay people ...
> >>>>> every time you get on a roll you find an exception
> >>>>> - some of the architecture of AB is quirky also e.g. essentially
> >>>>> it is a database, at the binary level, but you can't write
> >>>>> directly to the native database
> >>>>> - to save you future distress....many in the past have asked for
> >>>>> an AFL book...the logic seems compelling to me
> >>>>> - everyone starts from a different place so some need an 'Intro to
> >>>>> AB', book
> >>>>> - I like Howards contributions overall but IMO it is rather old
> >>>>> world to publish in hard copy ... an ebook would be much better
> >>>>> ... we have to consider that AB/AFL is way beyond the 500 pages
> >>>>> allocated to it ib Howard's 2 books.
> >>>>> - the AFL library is not the place to learn code ... good for
> >>>>> sharing code between experienced AFL'ers
> >>>>> - this forum is a book and contains at least 1000* the code, help,
> >>>>> code and trading tips available anywhere else .....
> >>>>> unfortunately it lacks sections, an index and topics etc .... once
> >>>>> again the logic for a better forum (from an educational
> >>>>> perspective) seems compelling.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Sorry Rik but Google searching Yahoo doesn't reference threads
> >>>>> does it?)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - AB/AFL is huge ... I don't think any layperson will ever cover
> >>>>> it all without a big effort to become a programming expert,
> >>>>> albeit one who specialises in AFL
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - AB is not a democracy or an open project
> >>>>>
> >>>>> BTW all of the advice given in this thread so far is spot on.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "louies88" <Louies88@> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think Amibroker is great, especially its AFL. Although I don't
> >>>>>> know enough about it to claim that it's superior than most other
> >>>>>> scripting languages out there, I know for a fact that this is one
> >>>>>> of the best. That also begs the question of how a person w/
> >>>>>> virtually no programming background can get started w/ AFL. I
> >>>>>> followed this forum long enough to note that some of you in here
> >>>>>> are excellent coders. The codes that I often see are flawless and
> >>>>>> eloquent, which then makes me think how long does it take a
> >>>>>> coding newbie such as myself to attain that coding level.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I look at it this way. Coding a computer language is pretty
> >>>>>> similar to learning a foreign language. I remember how my first
> >>>>>> English class went. I started out by learning a few basic
> >>>>>> vocabulary words, then use some of it in the form of a noun,
> >>>>>> then a
> >>>>>> verb, finally an object. Sentence structures, or in computer
> >>>>>> language better known as syntax, govern if a sentence is
> >>>>>> grammatically correct or if it's not. With that in mind, I also
> >>>>>> started out by looking at the AFL Library in Amibroker. I
> >>>>>> downloaded all of the functions in the hope of building myself an
> >>>>>> Amibroker vocabulary and started to put some of the basic
> >>>>>> vocabulary words together to make a "sentence."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> However, since there isn't any kind of document FORMALLY teaching
> >>>>>> the ABC of coding in Amibroker, I'm left w/ a question how does
> >>>>>> Amibroker syntax work? Some of the experienced coders here often
> >>>>>> compare AFL syntax to that of C++. But for a person w/ neither
> >>>>>> background in AFL or C++ or any other computer langugae, the
> >>>>>> question remains: How do I get start? Where's the square one?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anybody w/ such experience is highly appreciated if he/she's
> >>>>>> willing to shed a light on this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > **** IMPORTANT PLEASE READ ****
> > This group is for the discussion between users only.
> > This is *NOT* technical support channel.
> >
> > TO GET TECHNICAL SUPPORT send an e-mail directly to
> > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> >
> > TO SUBMIT SUGGESTIONS please use FEEDBACK CENTER at
> > http://www.amibroker.com/feedback/
> > (submissions sent via other channels won't be considered)
> >
> > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------
**** IMPORTANT PLEASE READ ****
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