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[amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary' trading...



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Tomasz,thats a good start,but its like sending someone to fight in 
the UFC with 5 Tae Kwon Do lessons under their belt.

Allan

p.s.  I cant seem to decipher what the P&L is generated from,i.e 
close-close,it seems to have a day lag,and almost every time I enter 
a long trade a sell is randomly generated and cover doesnt seem to 
function at all.







--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@xxx> 
wrote:
>
> Available (2006):
> http://www.amibroker.com/kb/2006/05/06/discretionary-equity/
> 
> Best regards,
> Tomasz Janeczko
> amibroker.com
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx>
> To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 10:34 AM
> Subject: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary' 
trading...
> 
> 
> > Only speaking for myself.
> > 
> >> I can certainly see the value in calculating a full suite of 
> >>metrics 
> >> based on the discretionary trades made via clicking on a chart 
over 
> >>a 
> >> given time period. These would be the equivalent of a mechanical 
> >> trader's backtest results and would be the benchmark by which 
> >> approaches were measured.
> > 
> > Yes, that is what I would like to be able to do..... it is the 
> > Discretionary Traders backtester.
> > 
> >> But, how exactly would a discretionary trader perform a WFA 
given 
> >> that WFA is the application of optimized parameters upon 
untested 
> >> data?
> > 
> > If I used that term I used it rather loosely ... if Alan used it 
I 
> > know what he meant..... fair enough, reserve the term for Walk
> > Forward as we know it now ... yes, they are different 
processes..... 
> > let's use something else, for what Alan wants, to avoid confusion.
> > 
> > Yes, I am only talking about a live simulation with the 
> > trades 'recorded' for later analysis AND/OR live metrics/money 
> > management (part A would be a good start) .... I still like the 
idea 
> > of being able to store the trades in static arrays that can be 
> > accessed via AFL.... don't know if that would fit in there or not.
> > 
> > brian_z
> > 
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@> wrote:
> >>
> >> I can certainly see the value in calculating a full suite of 
> > metrics 
> >> based on the discretionary trades made via clicking on a chart 
over 
> > a 
> >> given time period. These would be the equivalent of a mechanical 
> >> trader's backtest results and would be the benchmark by which 
> >> approaches were measured.
> >> 
> >> But, how exactly would a discretionary trader perform a WFA 
given 
> >> that WFA is the application of optimized parameters upon 
untested 
> >> data?
> >> 
> >> I doubt that you are suggesting that the discretionary trader 
would 
> >> manually iterate over the same chart trying different 
approaches, 
> > and 
> >> that AB (or any other product) would then have to somehow figure 
> > out 
> >> what the methodology was in order to apply that logic into the 
next 
> >> out of sample period. Yet, that would be the only way to marry 
the 
> >> two concepts (i.e. discretionary and WFA).
> >> 
> >> Even if the software did have some kind of artificial 
intelligence 
> >> that could capture logic based on the discretionary trades made 
> >> within a period, what would be the point? The discretionary 
trader 
> >> would not confine themself to the signals produced by the WFA. 
If 
> >> they did, they would no longer be discretionary, but instead be 
> >> mechanical traders :)
> >> 
> >> It seems to me that WFA is the exact opposite of discretionary 
> >> trading.
> >> 
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hi Sidhartha,
> >> > No offense to anyone,but it is a bit of a messy solution and 
one 
> >> that 
> >> > is good enough to make one dangerous.
> >> > 
> >> > It certainly appears that a skilled programmer could make the 
> >> > necessary changes to bring it to a professional level,but I am 
> >> > certainly not that person.
> >> > 
> >> > IMHO,whether one is a discretionary trader or system 
trader,the 
> >> > ability to perform some sort on WFA is essential,and the very 
> > same 
> >> > analytics/statistics should be available to both styles.
> >> > 
> >> > Does anyone think the discretionary traders at firms such as 
SAC 
> >> > capital simply wing it,while the stat arb boys have all the 
> >> > firepower??
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@> 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > I took a look at Herman's thread Mike and I personally think 
> > it's 
> >> a
> >> > > bit of a messy solution to what Allan is requesting. 
Basically 
> > he
> >> > > wants something of 'professional' quality rather than tacked 
on.
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Mike" <sfclimbers@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Your comment on simulated discretionary trading was 
addressed 
> >> > earlier 
> >> > > > in the thread by Herman, though perhaps not to the degree 
of 
> >> > backtest 
> >> > > > metrics that you might be after.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/message/128437
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Mike
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "matrix10014" <allansn@> 
> >> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Hi T,
> >> > > > >    As a discretionary trader,I find the charting package 
in 
> >> Ami 
> >> > to 
> >> > > > be 
> >> > > > > excellent.The only gripe I have is that one can not 
shift 
> > to 
> >> > higher 
> >> > > > > time frames(daily to weekly) without the chart and 
> > trendlines 
> >> > > > jumping 
> >> > > > > all over the place,i.e.,from one date to the 
next.Without 
> >> > having 
> >> > > > the 
> >> > > > > end dates locked(far right dates),multiple time frame 
> >> analysis 
> >> > > > > becomes a very difficult task,and analysis is rendered 
> >> > useless.Its 
> >> > > > > essential that the far right side of the chart have the 
> > same 
> >> > date 
> >> > > > on 
> >> > > > > any time frame.I discussed it in the past,but you had 
your 
> >> own 
> >> > > > > views.Sadly,I had to go to another program.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > On another note,and far more important, a discretionary 
> >> trader 
> >> > > > needs 
> >> > > > > the same risk management tools that a system trader 
> > does.The 
> >> > two 
> >> > > > > styles are not so disimilar that a system trader has the 
> >> > benefit of 
> >> > > > > full backtesting/optimisation/WFA while the 
discretionary 
> >> > trader 
> >> > > > > should be  left to perform his analysis with a 
pencil,paper 
> >> and 
> >> > > > > abacus.Ami should offer the capability to SIMULATE 
> >> > discretionary 
> >> > > > > trading.That means the ability to point and click on the 
> >> chart 
> >> > and 
> >> > > > > record all Entrys(long and short),Exits,and stops with 
> >> > > > > pyramiding/scaling capabilities.In addition full 
reporting 
> >> > should 
> >> > > > be 
> >> > > > > available with a scaled down version of backtest results 
as 
> >> > well as 
> >> > > > > the capability to export the trades should one wish to 
do 
> >> > perform 
> >> > > > > further analysis,i.e position sizing,Money management.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > Unless one is performing algorithmic trading/mean 
reversion 
> >> > > > > strategies,I think there is a fine line between rule 
based 
> >> > trading 
> >> > > > vs 
> >> > > > > discretionary.Granted the approachs are different,but 
once 
> > a 
> >> > trade 
> >> > > > is 
> >> > > > > on,one still has to manage it with the very best tools 
> >> > > > > available.Hopefully,Ami can level the playing field 
between 
> >> the 
> >> > > > > system "tools" vs the "discretionary" tools avaiable.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > Allan
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > Allan
> >> > > > >   
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" 
> > <groups@> 
> >> > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I appreciate all suggestions and there is really no 
> > problem
> >> > > > > > in adding new features provided that there is demand 
for 
> >> them.
> >> > > > > > I specifically asked for charting suggestions, as this 
is 
> >> way
> >> > > > > > more "subjective" thing than backtesting and other 
rule-
> >> based 
> >> > > > tools.
> >> > > > > > Discretionary traders seem to be very sensitive to all 
> > those
> >> > > > > > little details and aesthetics. These are are sometimes 
> > easy 
> >> > to 
> >> > > > > develop
> >> > > > > > sometimes not, but unless you hear the feedback it is 
not 
> >> > possible
> >> > > > > > to know what every single person uses. 
> >> > > > > > So again, feedback is appreciated. If possible and not 
> > too 
> >> > time 
> >> > > > > consuming
> >> > > > > > for you, I greatly appreciate filling the issue via 
> >> feedback 
> >> > > > > center. If not,
> >> > > > > > I can keep track on my internal list.
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > Best regards,
> >> > > > > > Tomasz Janeczko
> >> > > > > > amibroker.com
> >> > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > > > > > From: "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
> >> > > > > > To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:30 PM
> >> > > > > > Subject: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' 
> >> versus 'Discretionary' 
> >> > > > > trading...
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > How97,
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > I agree. You've stated nothing that I haven't 
already.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > I do use other software... MarketDelta & have been 
> >> looking 
> >> > at 
> >> > > > > Ninja
> >> > > > > > > with a market profile plug in as an alternative.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > Like others, I'm not desperately keen on using 
multiple 
> >> > software
> >> > > > > > > systems. I'd rather try and get it under one roof. 
And 
> >> the 
> >> > > > truth 
> >> > > > > is it
> >> > > > > > > really wouldn't be hard for TJ to add some of that 
> >> > > > functionality.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > I'm adding my voice to a largely dominant rule based 
> >> > crowd... I 
> >> > > > > hope
> >> > > > > > > you're ok with free expression of wishes and 
ideas...??
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > I think others have also made it clear on this 
thread 
> >> that 
> >> > > > they'd 
> >> > > > > like
> >> > > > > > > to see some more functionality on the charting side 
too.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "how97" 
<101.158294@> 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > >> I believe it is clear that the large majority of 
the 
> > AB 
> >> > users 
> >> > > > > want 
> >> > > > > > >> to have the possibility for rule-based trading, 
> >> > backtesting, 
> >> > > > > > >> automatic analysis, automatic trading etc. For that 
> >> group 
> >> > > > > Amibroker 
> >> > > > > > >> is just excellent and it is constantly enhanced in 
> > these 
> >> > > > > > >> possibilities. And that is what the large majority 
of 
> >> its 
> >> > > > users 
> >> > > > > > >> wants. And AB strongly supported by its users and 
> > driven 
> >> > by 
> >> > > > > their 
> >> > > > > > >> wishes.
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> The large majority of users is clearly not the 
> >> > discretionary 
> >> > > > > > >> traders. These may need better or specialized 
> > charting. 
> >> > That 
> >> > > > may 
> >> > > > > > >> well be. If this better charting software exists 
> > already 
> >> > as 
> >> > > > you 
> >> > > > > are 
> >> > > > > > >> saying, why are you not using it, why did you come 
> > here 
> >> to 
> >> > AB? 
> >> > > > > What 
> >> > > > > > >> were you looking for? 
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> I think it is also a clear preference of Tomasz to 
> >> develop 
> >> > AB 
> >> > > > > into a 
> >> > > > > > >> direction where most of its users wants to ahve it. 
> > And 
> >> > that 
> >> > > > is 
> >> > > > > > >> good. A lot of the stuff in AB is much too complex 
if 
> >> you 
> >> > are 
> >> > > > > just 
> >> > > > > > >> looking for other kinds of charting. So why bother? 
> > You 
> >> > need 
> >> > > > to 
> >> > > > > use 
> >> > > > > > >> a different software. 
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> By the way: In my opinion AB allows excellent 
charting.
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> Regards
> >> > > > > > >> how97
> >> > > > > > >> 
> >> > > > > > >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "sidhartha70" 
> >> > <sidhartha70@> 
> >> > > > > > >> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > >> > From my perspective, and this is really why I 
> >> connected 
> >> > > > > charting to
> >> > > > > > >> > the ideas of 'rule based' vs 'discretionary' 
> >> trading... 
> >> > if 
> >> > > > you 
> >> > > > > are 
> >> > > > > > >> a
> >> > > > > > >> > discretionary trader, from a software perspective 
it 
> >> is 
> >> > ALL 
> >> > > > > about
> >> > > > > > >> > visibility. If the software you are using doesn't 
or 
> >> > can't 
> >> > > > > give you
> >> > > > > > >> > the best visibility available then you are at a 
> >> > > > disadvanatge. 
> >> > > > > You
> >> > > > > > >> > can't make sensible discretionary trading 
decisions 
> >> > without 
> >> > > > > being 
> >> > > > > > >> able
> >> > > > > > >> > to see how current market structure has evolved, 
> > what 
> >> > market 
> >> > > > > > >> dynamics
> >> > > > > > >> > are at play, how the auction process is evolving 
at 
> >> > > > different 
> >> > > > > time
> >> > > > > > >> > frames etc..etc.. You simply don't get that from 
bar 
> > & 
> >> > > > candle 
> >> > > > > > >> charts.
> >> > > > > > >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> > Hence my obsession with Market Profile & 
Equivolume 
> >> and 
> >> > > > > generally 
> >> > > > > > >> more
> >> > > > > > >> > accessability and adaptability to AmiBroker's 
> > charting 
> >> > > > > facilicites.
> >> > > > > > >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> > Currently it's a fabulous piece of software, 
> >> > particualrly 
> >> > > > > for 'rule
> >> > > > > > >> > based' traders.... But probably a less fabulous 
> > piece 
> >> of 
> >> > > > > software 
> >> > > > > > >> for
> >> > > > > > >> > discretionary day traders for example. But of 
> > course, 
> >> I 
> >> > > > > appreciate,
> >> > > > > > >> > it's hard to be all things to all men...
> >> > > > > > >> > 
> >> > > > > > >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Close 
> >> <ken45140@> 
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > >> > >
> >> > > > > > >> > > One simple suggestion for charting improvement:
> >> > > > > > >> > > 
> >> > > > > > >> > > Put in the ability to insert a "Tab" character 
in 
> > a 
> >> > Title 
> >> > > > > > >> statement
> >> > > > > > >> > in order
> >> > > > > > >> > > to make it easier to produce multi-line tables 
> >> > > > > with "columns" 
> >> > > > > > >> left
> >> > > > > > >> > justified
> >> > > > > > >> > > no matter how many decimal places in previous 
> > values 
> >> > in 
> >> > > > the 
> >> > > > > same 
> >> > > > > > >> row.  I
> >> > > > > > >> > > have done it via complex IIF statements but how 
> > nice 
> >> > it 
> >> > > > > would be 
> >> > > > > > >> to
> >> > > > > > >> > insert
> >> > > > > > >> > > the code for a tab character to create 
columns.  
> > No, 
> >> I 
> >> > do 
> >> > > > > not 
> >> > > > > > >> want to do
> >> > > > > > >> > > this with the gfx commands (too complex for 
this 
> >> > > > > application).
> >> > > > > > >> > > 
> >> > > > > > >> > > Ken 
> >> > > > > > >> > > 
> >> > > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> >> > > > > > >> > > From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >> > > > > > >> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> >> > > > > > >> > On Behalf
> >> > > > > > >> > > Of Tomasz Janeczko
> >> > > > > > >> > > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
> >> > > > > > >> > > To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > > > > > >> > > Subject: Re: [amibroker] 'Rule Based' 
> >> > > > versus 'Discretionary' 
> >> > > > > > >> trading...
> >> > > > > > >> > > 
> >> > > > > > >> > > Hello,
> >> > > > > > >> > > 
> >> > > > > > >> > > Not wanting to hijack this thread but whenever 
I 
> > ask 
> >> > about 
> >> > > > > some 
> >> > > > > > >> itemized
> >> > > > > > >> > > list of what is exactly "weak" in AB charting, 
I 
> >> don't 
> >> > > > > receive 
> >> > > > > > >> any
> >> > > > > > >> > > meaningful reply. I would really want to know 
some 
> >> > > > objective 
> >> > > > > list
> >> > > > > > >> > instead of
> >> > > > > > >> > > statements I heard on ET that "charts are ugly" 
> >> which 
> >> > for 
> >> > > > me
> >> > > > > > >> > unfortunatelly
> >> > > > > > >> > > means nothing, considering the hunderds of ways 
> >> charts 
> >> > can 
> >> > > > > be 
> >> > > > > > >> customized
> >> > > > > > >> > > according to user taste in AB.
> >> > > > > > >> > >
> >> > > > > > >> >
> >> > > > > > >>
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > Please note that this group is for discussion 
between 
> >> users 
> >> > > > only.
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail 
> >> > directly to 
> >> > > > > > > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always 
> > check 
> >> > > > DEVLOG:
> >> > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > For other support material please check also:
> >> > > > > > > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > > 
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
> > 
> > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to 
> > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > 
> > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > 
> > For other support material please check also:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>



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