Re: SV: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary' trading..., AmiBroker Email List Archive

The greatest strength AB has, in addition to being a flexible product which incidentally happens to be very good value for money, is the AB user community. This user group confers on this product, via it's willingness to help new users, one of it's greatest strengths and I would even venture to say has contributed in no small measure to the success of this product. I know I am digressing from the subject matter of this thread but I believe a little bit of appreciation for the people who have helped me and countless others is not out of place here.

R

On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Dennis Brown <see3d@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello AmiFriends,

I think there may be some confusion about why a "discretionary" trader
would want to use AB for their charting needs if their are other
"charting" programs that do a better job on the kinds of charts they
are used to seeing. Discretionary trading the way I do it is not just
look at a chart, draw some S/R lines and pull the trigger whenever I
feel like it. Good discretionary traders follow rules if they want to
be consistently profitable.

It is just that it is hard to program ALL the rules they follow
(including pattern recognition and economic events) into a simple
procedural language like AFL. However, MANY of the rules they follow
can be programmed in and when presented in an easy to assimilate way
save a lot of energy and aid the decisions about when to trade.

Of course, if you can't program in ALL the rules, you can't backtest
the whole system. Therein comes the requests for things like easy ways
to mark the trades on the charts for "discretionary" backtesting.

Textual information is a very low bandwidth path into the human
brain. Graphical information can be assimilated in a flash. It is
the fastest path for information into the brain. Therein comes the
requests for things like different ways to format the charts, colors
added to Parameters Window, more line thicknesses, more X axis
control, more chart primitives, etc., so that the graphical
information can be presented in the way that interfaces the easiest
with that particular trader. Even the rule based systems are easier
to work with when 3D charting is used to show the backtesting results.

So why AmiBroker for discretionary traders?

AB is fast! Complex rules and creation of graphical information takes
time. Time lag is the greatest enemy of the realtime trader.

AB is economical! Lets face it, traders are always looking to buy
low, sell high... LOL. Many are just starting out learning about rule
based trading and programming. I will likely take years (even if a
full time trader) to learn how to make a good system. Not everybody
starts out as a rich successful trader when they decide to look into
using AB. In fact, they are probably looking because they have not
achieved that yet.

AB is flexible! AFL can do many things and APIs are available to
extend further with other languages.

AB is well supported! Advanced users are providing help on this list
all the time. AB official support responds quickly and expertly.
Tomasz also stays in close contact with his users and answers many
internal technical questions that only he would know.

AB is evolving! Tomasz listens to the needs of his users and tries
his best to accommodate as many different needs as he can --even from
the minority. TJ introduces new features and bug fixes at a regular
rate. The betas are of high stability.

And another thing. Discretionary traders would like to automate as
much of their process as possible. Even though it may be hard or
impractical to turn everything into rules, there is value in turning
as much into rules a possible. It may take many years, but a trader
can slowly gain proficiency in the tool and learn ways of making rules
that seemed impossible last year. Of course for this to happen he
needs to be using AB for his trading now. Supporting his current way
of trading gives him the ability to use the tool while he is slowly
learning how to do more with the tool.

I started only rule based many years ago - moved to only discretionary
a few years ago - now slowly putting all the pieces together into only
rules again.

That is it from my perspective. I started writing this a few messages
back, but tacked it on to the last few (good) responses as well.

Best regards,
Dennis

On Aug 19, 2008, at 1:31 PM, _sdavis wrote:

> Jan, I am curious how you and other discretionary traders are using
> afl and the backtester. You mentioned constructing some models you
> use. Are you also backtesting those models?
>
> I'm intrigued by the tools used by discretionary traders, but I would
> not feel comfortable embarking on a discretionary trading career
> without testing the trading techniques on historical data.
>
> There have been some occasions when I have used the study drawing
> tools and wished for an easy way to incorporate the drawing tool into
> a rule-based system. I would like to see additional afl functions to
> expose the drawing tools to rule-based systems. I think this would
> benefit both rule-based and discretionary traders.
>
> Cheers, Steve
>
>
> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Jan Malmberg" <jan@xxx> wrote:
>>
>> How97,
>>
>> You speak for your own personal interests as a systems-only-trader.
>> You
>> should look at things from TJ's side as well. Since he asked us, it
> is clear
>> that he wants some input on how to improve Amibroker's charting
>> side as
>> well.
>>
>>
>>
>> By the way, you are very much mistaken if you think that
>> discretionary
>> traders have no use for Amibroker and its AFL capabilities. I have
>> constructed quite a few models that I use, and have lots more
> coming, that
>> in no way are for system users only. There seems to be a widespread
>> perception that all that discretionary traders do is draw a few
> trendlines,
>> label some Elliott Waves, and look at a few Fibonacci levels. That
> is not
>> true. For instance, I have run various tests on most of the MA's I
> watch in
>> order to assign them their proper level of importance when making
> decisions
>> – which was greatly simplified using Amibroker. Also, a lot of
> discretionary
>> traders use quite advanced custom made indicators in order to
> extract more
>> information from the market. Amibroker is excellent for those
>> things as
>> well.
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter how much I like the program, I will continue to ask for
>> improvements on occasion, especially when the programmer asks for
>> input.
>>
>>
>>
>> You also mention that if this and that program has better abilities,
> why do
>> we not use it? The reason is this: Amibroker lacks a few minor
> things from
>> that program, a few minor things from this program, and so on, while
> having
>> great general and (some) advanced charting capabilities. For TJ to
> gradually
>> add a few useful things from other programs to further improve
> Amibroker for
>> all kinds of users will in the end equal more money for TJ, which in
> the end
>> equals if possible even more dedication, even better software, if
> possible
>> even better support.
>>
>>
>>
>> Since Amibroker in itself is not a system, from my point of view
> there isn't
>> any downside to TJ improving all aspects of Amibroker in order to
> attract
>> more and more users.
>>
>>
>>
>> Lastly, I know of many people who are discretionary traders at
>> various
>> levels of proficiency to whom I recommend Amibroker. It is a very
> simple and
>> mostly user-friendly program, and you get much for the price of the
> program.
>> So, until I see some statistics about the Amibroker users, I would
>> not
>> assume that most of them are hardcore systems or auto-systems
> traders that
>> desperately need all of the (arguably very good and useful)
>> features you
>> mentioned, nor would I assume that even if most customers are system
>> traders, that they would disapprove of new charting features,
> features that
>> in the end may give them new ideas for their system designs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, just my 0.13 SEK, and I am not yet an Immortal.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards / JM
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> Från: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> För how97
>> Skickat: den 19 augusti 2008 17:17
>> Till: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Ämne: [amibroker] Re: 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary' trading...
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe it is clear that the large majority of the AB users want
>> to have the possibility for rule-based trading, backtesting,
>> automatic analysis, automatic trading etc. For that group Amibroker
>> is just excellent and it is constantly enhanced in these
>> possibilities. And that is what the large majority of its users
>> wants. And AB strongly supported by its users and driven by their
>> wishes.
>>
>> The large majority of users is clearly not the discretionary
>> traders. These may need better or specialized charting. That may
>> well be. If this better charting software exists already as you are
>> saying, why are you not using it, why did you come here to AB? What
>> were you looking for?
>>
>> I think it is also a clear preference of Tomasz to develop AB into a
>> direction where most of its users wants to ahve it. And that is
>> good. A lot of the stuff in AB is much too complex if you are just
>> looking for other kinds of charting. So why bother? You need to use
>> a different software.
>>
>> By the way: In my opinion AB allows excellent charting.
>>
>> Regards
>> how97
>>
>> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ps.com,
>> "sidhartha70" <sidhartha70@>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> From my perspective, and this is really why I connected charting to
>>> the ideas of 'rule based' vs 'discretionary' trading... if you are
>> a
>>> discretionary trader, from a software perspective it is ALL about
>>> visibility. If the software you are using doesn't or can't give you
>>> the best visibility available then you are at a disadvanatge. You
>>> can't make sensible discretionary trading decisions without being
>> able
>>> to see how current market structure has evolved, what market
>> dynamics
>>> are at play, how the auction process is evolving at different time
>>> frames etc..etc.. You simply don't get that from bar & candle
>> charts.
>>>
>>> Hence my obsession with Market Profile & Equivolume and generally
>> more
>>> accessability and adaptability to AmiBroker's charting facilicites.
>>>
>>> Currently it's a fabulous piece of software, particualrly for 'rule
>>> based' traders.... But probably a less fabulous piece of software
>> for
>>> discretionary day traders for example. But of course, I appreciate,
>>> it's hard to be all things to all men...
>>>
>>> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> ps.com,
>> Ken Close <ken45140@> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> One simple suggestion for charting improvement:
>>>>
>>>> Put in the ability to insert a "Tab" character in a Title
>> statement
>>> in order
>>>> to make it easier to produce multi-line tables with "columns"
>> left
>>> justified
>>>> no matter how many decimal places in previous values in the same
>> row. I
>>>> have done it via complex IIF statements but how nice it would be
>> to
>>> insert
>>>> the code for a tab character to create columns. No, I do not
>> want to do
>>>> this with the gfx commands (too complex for this application).
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
> ps.com
>> [mailto:amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com>
>> ps.com]
>>> On Behalf
>>>> Of Tomasz Janeczko
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 4:33 PM
>>>> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:amibroker%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [amibroker] 'Rule Based' versus 'Discretionary'
>> trading...
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Not wanting to hijack this thread but whenever I ask about some
>> itemized
>>>> list of what is exactly "weak" in AB charting, I don't receive
>> any
>>>> meaningful reply. I would really want to know some objective list
>>> instead of
>>>> statements I heard on ET that "charts are ugly" which for me
>>> unfortunatelly
>>>> means nothing, considering the hunderds of ways charts can be
>> customized
>>>> according to user taste in AB.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
>
> To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to
> SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
>
> For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
> http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
>
> For other support material please check also:
> http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

------------------------------------

Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.

To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to
SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com

For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/

For other support material please check also:
http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:amibroker-digest@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
mailto:amibroker-fullfeatured@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
amibroker-unsubscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/