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[amibroker] Re: Study Charting dare I say bugs...



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Great answer.

Actually in the modern world there are many examples of brilliant 
catalogues written by musical collaborators (Lennon_McCartney, ABBA, 
Pink Floyd, Elton John_Bernie Taupin, Bee Gees, Eagles etc) none of 
whom were ever as good, IMO, when they went to solo careers.

It seems solo composition is better for you so that is the main thing.

Fantastic for you that it is like composing music.

O.K - I will stop worrying for you now.

Thanks for correcting the record.

Cheers,

brian_z

--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@xxx> 
wrote:
>
> Hello,
> 
> For correctness sake: AB is NOT one man band.
> There is Marcin doing 99% of support tasks. Plus I do outsource
> bookkeeping and some other "side" tasks.
> 
> What is one-man is AmiBroker core development.
> And it will stay that way for various reasons, with main reason
> being that adding 2 more developers for core development
> would SLOW DOWN the development and the quality 
> would go down hill, no matter how good these developers are.
> These are facts of life. I was working in various developer teams
> in the past starting from 3 people ending at 40 developers
> and adding developers only adds problems. The only 
> way to work in a team in efficient way is to have *separate* 
programs
> to develop (they can communicate between each other).
> Sligthly less efficient (but still OK) is to have plugin approach
> with well defined interface. The plugin approach is already 
implemented in AB.
> 
> Programming is NOT equivalent to homebuilding.
> Programming is rather like composing music. At least for me.
> Did you see lots of music written by more than one composer?
> (even if many people appear on the "credits", usually the core idea 
is the work
> of one man).
> 
> Best regards,
> Tomasz Janeczko
> amibroker.com
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "brian_z111" <brian_z111@xxx>
> To: <amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 10:56 AM
> Subject: [amibroker] Re: Study Charting dare I say bugs...
> 
> 
> > Paul,
> > 
> > Thanks for your thoughtful comments.
> > 
> >> I also assumed that many of those who wanted/relied 
> >> on AB's drawing capabilities might also have deserted us already.
> > 
> > Dennis, Joseph, Murthyuresh and Bill are still here.
> > They strike me as being people with a good knowledge of AB and 
also 
> > not the types to make frivilous complaints.
> > 
> >>  Believe me, the law 
> >> of diminishing return applies far more rigourously in human than 
> >> CPUs.
> > 
> > 
> > I have to agree that this is a factor but born business people 
thrive 
> > on that challenge.
> > 
> > Small business challenges are the same all around the developed 
world.
> > 
> > Example:
> > 
> > Friends of my wife - husband and wife 6 figure+ PA turnover every 
> > year - earthmoving and construction.
> > 
> > He was on mobile and got calls all day, every day and night of 
the 
> > week.
> > He was a one man 'operating' band - she 'did the books' and was 
the 
> > hidden business brains.
> > 
> > I told him "if you are available 24/7 they will call you 24/7, if 
you 
> > are available 9 to 5 they will call you 9 to 5 and you will still 
do 
> > exactly the same amount of business".
> > 
> > Also - the decision to change from a 'one man band' operation to 
> > a 'business model' is very hard for anyone and excruciating for 
some.
> > 
> > I told him "you have to learn to trust people and delegate and 
then 
> > you can get some fishing time".
> > 
> > Today his mobile is private and only for family use.
> > He has a business (sort of) manager and an office (sort of) 
manager.
> > 
> > I told him "Now you have to give your 'manager' his own project 
to 
> > run from start to finish and give him a % of the profit.
> > If he is successful then give him the next project as well and 
take 
> > your first holiday in 10 years" (his wife always listens quietly).
> > 
> > Then I said "It doesn't matter what you do the staff will never 
do it 
> > exactly as you will do it yourself and they will never be quite 
as 
> > good at it as you are".
> > 
> > He turned to me and said "Yes, but they are good enough".
> > 
> > His business has doubled in the last 3 years.
> > 
> > His wife is a very good student.
> > 
> > brian_z
> > 
> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Paul Ho" <paultsho@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Being a patron of AB for more than 4 years. I would say that AB 
is 
> >> very much an AFL centric product. The changes in the AFL engine 
and 
> >> its capabilities has been nothing short of phenomenal. In 
contrast, 
> >> the hand drawing features of AB has hardly changed in the last 4 
> >> years, and probably not much has changed for much longer than 
that. 
> >> Although not publicly stated, I presumed that it is the 
direction 
> >> that Tomasz wants to go, and this specialization has been very 
> >> successful. I can also assumed that many of those who 
wanted/relied 
> >> on AB's drawing capabilities might also have deserted us 
already. I 
> >> have known some of the problems Dennis has mentioned long time 
ago, 
> >> but somehow I have never bothered even to mentioned them, 
probably 
> >> because I developed myself more on AFL as a trading and charting 
> >> tool, and hardly use the drawing tools these day. 
> >> 
> >> Tomasz is a one man band. So I can apprecriate and am very happy 
> > with 
> >> the product direction he has taken. I dont think Brian's 
suggestion 
> >> of hiring a few more programmers is the answer. Believe me, the 
law 
> >> of diminishing return applies far more rigourously in human than 
> >> CPUs. What I would like to see is that Tomasz opens up the hand 
> >> drawing capability to third party contribution throuh the use of 
> >> plugins, much like the AFL and data plugins. Once done, I'm sure 
> > that 
> >> people will roll their own drawing tools. Of course, existing 
bugs 
> >> will still need to be fixed.
> >> 
> >> --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "brian_z111" <brian_z111@> 
wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > And no, I can not hire 2 more programmers because then I 
would 
> >> need 
> >> > >to rise the cost of the program 3 times
> >> > > and then everyone would scream that it is too expensive and 
> > will 
> >> > >walk away. Then it would mean the end of product.
> >> > 
> >> > Since Dennis's intent is to invite constructive comment and 
since 
> >> the 
> >> > forum does act as an informal customer feedback center:
> >> > 
> >> > the content of your reply relates to a lot of personal and 
> > business 
> >> > decisions - not sure if you are inviting comment on those 
matters?
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > As a customer:
> >> > 
> >> > I am not certain that I am a price buyer (once again this 
relates 
> >> to 
> >> > business theory and application), probably not.
> >> > 
> >> > The price is nice but is it the reason I buy AB?
> >> > 
> >> > In the first place I made a choice to make trading my home 
based 
> >> > business (I could have chosen something else), so that makes 
me a 
> >> > business customer I guess (albeit a small-time one).
> >> > 
> >> > You can't trade professionally with anything less than approx 
> > $100K.
> >> > If I invested that amount with an Aussie fund I would pay 
around 
> > 2% 
> >> > expenses, so 2K PA is a reasonable operating cost.
> >> > 
> >> > When I first started my costs were high (books, training 
courses 
> >> etc) 
> >> > but now I can operate around those figures (I do my own tax 
and 
> >> only 
> >> > need software/data/computer/internet - but I would have 
> >> > computer/internet anyway - I don't need specialist computers 
for 
> >> > trading).
> >> > 
> >> > Of course that is only if we don't consider brokerage as a 
> > business 
> >> > cost - if I daytrade 100k what is my annual brokerage bill? - 
> >> > mentally I lump this in with gross edge - commissions == net 
edge 
> >> but 
> >> > in business terms it is on the books as operating costs.
> >> > Software/data costs are a tiny fraction of annual commissions.
> >> > 
> >> > Anyone who has operated a business, in one of the major 
economies 
> >> of 
> >> > the world, will know that trading costs are laughable compared 
to 
> >> the 
> >> > costs of running other businesses - most businesses in 
Australia 
> >> run 
> >> > on very low net returns compared to the capital invested in 
the 
> >> > business.
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Also when I bought AB I was not a naive trader.
> >> > I knew what I was doing and had owned two other software 
packages 
> >> > prior to AB.
> >> > 
> >> > On that basis I would say I am a specialist customer (perhaps 
> > that 
> >> is 
> >> > AB's niche in the market).
> >> > 
> >> > Specialists want the software to do the things they want it to 
do 
> >> > (pretty hard since we all want different things).
> >> > 
> >> > Adding all of that up I vote for:
> >> > 
> >> > please hire another programmer, give people more of what they 
> > want 
> >> > (give the optimizers their dual core stuff, give the chartists 
> >> their 
> >> > snap and draw or whatever, give the Aussies their YahooFdata 
etc, 
> >> > etc) and put the price up - maybe even add some features
> >> >  to the UKB :-)
> >> > 
> >> > Metastock is the point of comparison for AB - it is approx 
$500 
> > PA 
> >> > for EOD and from $1000 for Pro - so AB can stand that price 
(of 
> >> > course they have 'lease' MS for a monthly fee which allows us 
to 
> >> > pretend we are not paying $1000 a year and so that makes it 
feel 
> >> > nicer).
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Re price buying:
> >> > 
> >> > If I buy a cheap car I get less features.
> >> > If I pay more I get more features and better appointments.
> >> > If I buy the cheap car I still expect the (lesser) features to 
> > work.
> >> > If they don't I won't buy it again at any price.
> >> > 
> >> > (if an existing feature doesn't work this has a far more 
negative 
> >> > effect on customers than not having the feature they want in 
the 
> >> > first place? - psychologists claim that one negative 
experience 
> > far 
> >> > outweigns many positive experiences - also it is human nature 
to 
> >> buy 
> >> > the cheaper model and then complain because it doesn't have 
the 
> >> > features they didn't pay for - that will never change).
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Re: walking away
> >> > 
> >> > When it comes time for you to buy a new car what do you do 
Tomasz?
> >> > 
> >> > Are you going to stick to a brand, out of loyalty, if a 
competing 
> >> > model has better reliability, features and appointments at the 
> > same 
> >> > price?
> >> > 
> >> > How about availability, delivery and service?
> >> > 
> >> > What motivates you to buy a product and then rebuy it over and 
> > over?
> >> > 
> >> > Also you will find your needs change with time - as the kids 
grow 
> >> the 
> >> > house and the cars get bigger and after they go you and your 
wife 
> >> can 
> >> > have an office each (they used to be the kids rooms).
> >> > 
> >> > So, perhaps people will walk away if their needs change and/or 
AB 
> >> is 
> >> > no loner meeting their needs.
> >> > 
> >> >  - better ask your wife, about the car, before you buy though -
 
> > it 
> >> > always pays to get a second opinion ;-)
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Re: what do customers want?
> >> > 
> >> > We want it all - don't you?
> >> > 
> >> > That will never change either.
> >> > 
> >> > The more that companies meet those 'impossible' needs the more 
> >> > customers they get.
> >> > 
> >> > For example - who goes to Starbucks to pick up a coffee, then 
> > goes 
> >> to 
> >> > Wendys to pick up a donut and takes them to the burger shop to 
> > put 
> >> > them together for a nice breakfast if they can get a nice 
burger, 
> >> > coffee and donut at Maccas (plus a free paper to read as well)?
> >> > 
> >> > - better get a second opinion from the kids on that one too ;-)
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > Hope my perspective offered some helpful feedback.
> >> > 
> >> > Regards,
> >> > 
> >> > brian_z
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Tomasz Janeczko" <groups@> 
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > Hello,
> >> > > 
> >> > > You people don't seem to realise that I am THE ONLY PERSON 
who 
> >> > works on AmiBroker code.
> >> > > The day has only 24 hours and one person has only two hands.
> >> > > Now if even few people ouf of 8000 users submit "ideas" 
> > everyday, 
> >> > no matter what I do I can not implement
> >> > > them IMMEDIATELLY.
> >> > > 
> >> > > And no, I can not hire 2 more programmers because then I 
would 
> >> need 
> >> > to rise the cost of the program 3 times
> >> > > and then everyone would scream that it is too expensive and 
> > will 
> >> > walk away. Then it would mean the end of product.
> >> > > 
> >> > > So, considering that I am the ONLY DEVELOPER of AmiBroker 
and 
> >> wrote 
> >> > everything from scratch with my own hands, I can say that:
> >> > > a) I am doing more than anyone in this business to make 
> > customers 
> >> > happy
> >> > > b) I am implementing MORE features/user requests/ideas than 
> >> anyone 
> >> > else in this business
> >> > > c) I am going an extra mile with responding PERSONALLY on 
the 
> >> > public mailing list to many of your posts.
> >> > > 
> >> > > I can not do MORE than I am doing now. It is physically 
> >> impossible 
> >> > for anyone.
> >> > > 
> >> > > So, if I tell you that I am going to check things, I will do 
> >> that, 
> >> > but this is all subject to TIME and PHYSICAL ABILITY 
constraints.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Pushing the string does not help at all. It makes things 
worse.
> >> > > 
> >> > > Best regards,
> >> > > Tomasz Janeczko
> >> > > amibroker.com
> >> > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > >   From: wavemechanic 
> >> > >   To: AmiBroker, User 
> >> > >   Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 2:47 PM
> >> > >   Subject: Re: [amibroker] Study Charting dare I say bugs...
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > >   Dennis:
> >> > > 
> >> > >   I completely agree with your overall assessment and know 
that 
> >> at 
> >> > least several users also completely or partially agree but may 
or 
> >> may 
> >> > not respond - so you are not alone.  Much has been said 
through 
> > the 
> >> > years on the Yahoo board/AB website/support mail about 
> >> > bugs, "clunkiness", and desired/necessary features.  Because 
of 
> > the 
> >> > type of problems that you mentioned (I am also indicator mode 
> >> > oriented), I use the EOD version of AB and then only at "half 
> >> > throttle" because my applications and programming needs are 
not 
> > as 
> >> > extensive as that of a number of other AB users.  Like you, I 
use 
> >> > broker supplied and personal software for RT streaming and 
> > charting 
> >> > studies (no "shoe" fits all).  These issues, however, are not 
> >> > restricted to AB as evidenced by a recent review on another 
board 
> >> > where the user compared AB/Metastock/Tradestation/Blocks and 
> > ended 
> >> up 
> >> > (as I understand) with a Blocks package that includes 
> >> > charting/streaming data/EOD data/backtesting/useful standard 
> >> > features - so things are evolving.
> >> > > 
> >> > >   Bill
> >> > >     ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > >     From: Dennis Brown 
> >> > >     To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> >> > >     Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:12 AM
> >> > >     Subject: [amibroker] Study Charting dare I say bugs...
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > >     Friends,
> >> > > 
> >> > >     AmiBroker is a wonderful program for many things.  In 
fact 
> > I 
> >> > use only  
> >> > >     a fraction of its total capability for my trading 
style.  I 
> >> > trade only  
> >> > >     single ticker (futures) real time and write whole 
trading 
> >> > systems just  
> >> > >     in AFL in indicator mode.  This is actually more like 
the 
> >> > traditional  
> >> > >     chart trading that is offered by many brokers.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     I would expect that AB, which supports all these 
functions 
> > as 
> >> a 
> >> > very  
> >> > >     basic operating mode would be at least as good as other 
> >> > charting  
> >> > >     programs.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     However, even though the fundamental operations are 
there 
> >> (and 
> >> > I think  
> >> > >     potentially better), the interface (either design or 
> >> > implementation  
> >> > >     bugs --I don't know which) has made it hard for me to 
use 
> >> this 
> >> > product  
> >> > >     for drawing even basic lines on the charts while 
trading.  
> > In 
> >> > fact, I  
> >> > >     need a second chart from my broker's application open to 
> > the 
> >> > same  
> >> > >     ticker just so I can draw lines where I want them even 
> > though 
> >> > AB would  
> >> > >     be superior at this if it were not for the bugs.  This 
has 
> >> been 
> >> > going  
> >> > >     on with me for over a year now and it is costing me.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     I have other trading friends that I have recommended try 
AB 
> >> in 
> >> > the  
> >> > >     last week, and I am embarrassed to think what they will 
say 
> >> to 
> >> > me when  
> >> > >     they figure out that these basic features don't work 
> >> properly.  
> >> > I have  
> >> > >     actually refrained from recommending AB to them for 
quite a 
> >> > while -- 
> >> > >     hoping these things would be fixed first.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     I don't know how many other traders are frustrated by 
the 
> >> same 
> >> > bugs,  
> >> > >     but if you are, please join the conversation so that 
Tomasz 
> >> > knows that  
> >> > >     this is important to you also and perhaps we can get 
some 
> >> > higher  
> >> > >     priority on getting the study charting to work properly.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     Here is a short list of my frustrating bugs --there are 
> >> others 
> >> > on the  
> >> > >     suggestions and bug lists, but I am only pointing out 
the 
> >> ones 
> >> > that  
> >> > >     cost profits by either making it very slow to do a 
simple 
> >> > operation  
> >> > >     that makes one lose the trade opportunity, or creates 
> >> > frustration and  
> >> > >     emotion which takes one out of the trading "Zone", or 
makes 
> >> the 
> >> > line  
> >> > >     drawn correctly to become inaccurate causing one to miss 
> > the 
> >> > trigger  
> >> > >     point for a trade.  If I have missed any that you feel 
are 
> >> > costing you  
> >> > >     profits (not the nice to have pretty things) than please 
> > add 
> >> > them to  
> >> > >     the conversation.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     #726.  Handles from a selected study line are not 
> > respected.  
> >> > Often  
> >> > >     several lines are anchored or pass through the same 
pivot 
> >> > points.   
> >> > >     Price levels, Trend lines, Forks, Fibs, etc., often use 
a 
> >> > common pivot  
> >> > >     point.  However, as a trade progresses, new pivots 
become 
> >> more  
> >> > >     important and the lines need to be adjusted in real 
time.  
> > It 
> >> > is easy  
> >> > >     to select a study just by clicking on it in a spot where 
it 
> >> is 
> >> > unique,  
> >> > >     and the handles will appear along the line.  However, 
> > unlike 
> >> > any other  
> >> > >     charting program I have ever used, clicking and dragging 
on 
> >> > the  
> >> > >     visible handle will not usually work properly if any 
other 
> >> > study  
> >> > >     crosses very close to that handle.  The problem is that 
AB 
> >> will 
> >> > grab  
> >> > >     the earliest drawn study and not the selected one --it 
will 
> >> un-
> >> > select  
> >> > >     the one you selected and select the oldest one and drag 
it 
> >> > instead.   
> >> > >     After playing around for a few valuable seconds trying 
to 
> >> grab 
> >> > the  
> >> > >     right line, I end up having to move the whole line away 
> > from 
> >> > its  
> >> > >     current location and reposition all its handles.  Very 
> >> > frustrating and  
> >> > >     takes the time and concentration away from the trading 
> > action.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     #728.  Horizontal price levels do not stay horizontal.  
The 
> >> > horizontal  
> >> > >     lines (price levels) do not snap to a bar with the 
magnet 
> >> mode 
> >> > on.   
> >> > >     They just are placed at the cursor level.  However, if 
you 
> >> > click on  
> >> > >     the line, it jumps to an angled line that snaps to the 
bar 
> > on 
> >> > the left  
> >> > >     side of the screen.  Its operation is just bizarre and 
> > causes 
> >> > errors  
> >> > >     in placement of the price level after the fact.  
> > Completely  
> >> > >     unacceptable behavior for trading.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     #890.  Study handles change when off screen.  Lets say 
you 
> >> have 
> >> > the  
> >> > >     magnet on and are zoomed out and draw a trend line 
between 
> >> two 
> >> > peaks.   
> >> > >     Next you zoom in on the trading action so that only the 
> > right 
> >> > hand  
> >> > >     handle is visible on the chart.  Now say the prices have 
> >> > advanced to a  
> >> > >     new peak and you need to adjust the right handle to the 
new 
> >> > peak (this  
> >> > >     is a very common occurrence).  Most of the time, that 
> > handle 
> >> > that is  
> >> > >     off screen jumps to a new bar position and is no longer 
on 
> >> the 
> >> > peak  
> >> > >     you selected.  Of course that changes the slope of the 
> > trend 
> >> > line to  
> >> > >     the wrong one, but you never know it when trading and 
you 
> > end 
> >> > up  
> >> > >     placing bad breakout trades because the line is in the 
> > wrong 
> >> > place  
> >> > >     now.  Completely unacceptable behavior for trading.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     #990.  Drag shadow is on the wrong bar.  When dragging a 
> >> study, 
> >> > there  
> >> > >     is a thin "shadow" line that shows which bar you have 
> > dragged 
> >> > the  
> >> > >     handles to.  However, when the mouse is released, the 
study 
> >> > gets moved  
> >> > >     to a different bar than the one indicated by the 
shadow.  
> >> This 
> >> > wastes  
> >> > >     valuable time with two or three attempts to figure out 
> > which 
> >> > wrong bar  
> >> > >     to put the shadow on to get the study to go where you 
want 
> >> it.  
> >> > This  
> >> > >     is an annoyance.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     And here is one more that I just found today.  If I draw 
> >> trend 
> >> > lines  
> >> > >     on a one minute bar snapped to peaks, then switch to a 5 
> >> minute 
> >> > view,  
> >> > >     the trend lines are shown on the wrong 5 minute bars.  
And 
> >> > heaven help  
> >> > >     me if I select the line in that view, because it will 
snap 
> > to 
> >> > these  
> >> > >     wrong bars.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     There you have my short list.  Please speak up if these 
> >> issues 
> >> > affect  
> >> > >     you.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     Best regards,
> >> > >     Dennis
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > >     ------------------------------------
> >> > > 
> >> > >     Please note that this group is for discussion between 
users 
> >> > only.
> >> > > 
> >> > >     To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail 
> > directly 
> >> to 
> >> > >     SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> >> > > 
> >> > >     For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always 
check 
> >> > DEVLOG:
> >> > >     http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> >> > > 
> >> > >     For other support material please check also:
> >> > >     http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> >> > >     Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
---
> > --
> >> --
> >> > --------
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > > 
> >> > >     No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> > >     Checked by AVG. 
> >> > >     Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1510 - 
Release 
> >> Date: 
> >> > 6/19/2008 3:21 PM
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------------
> > 
> > Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.
> > 
> > To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to 
> > SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com
> > 
> > For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/
> > 
> > For other support material please check also:
> > http://www.amibroker.com/support.html
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> >
>



------------------------------------

Please note that this group is for discussion between users only.

To get support from AmiBroker please send an e-mail directly to 
SUPPORT {at} amibroker.com

For NEW RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENTS and other news always check DEVLOG:
http://www.amibroker.com/devlog/

For other support material please check also:
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