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FWIW,
If you are trading ETFs solely to avoid ERFs from funds you are missing the boat. There are certainly some decent closed-end funds, but for example, if you are trading a gold ETF instead of a good gold fund then you are needlessly hurting yourself. Compare the gold ETF against a UNPWX or similar.
All I'm saying is don't close your mind. For us linear thinkers, we've got to force ourselves to look at all the broad range of possibilities, and aren't we blessed to have so many of them?
Have a great weekend,
Gary
Fred <fctonetti@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The ETF's outside the standard Spyders, Diamonds and Cubes have very low volume to the point where for the post part they wouldn't pass most peoples volume criteria which in turn causes large spreads and slippage and if what one was looking for was an index oriented mutual fund then one doesn't really need a mutual fund, do they ?--- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Chuck Rademacher" <chuck_rademacher@x> wrote:> Excellent points, Ken. There are plenty of ETF's around with all-day> liquidity and pricing.> -----Original Message-----> From: Ken Close [mailto:closeks@xxxx]> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:52 PM> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [amibroker] Re: Trading mutual funds...> > >
Jitu:> > One aspect I might mention is for you to be as clear as possible in your> mind as to what is interesting you about mutual funds. You may already> have that in mind or are waiting until you learn more.> > In general, mutual funds are thought of as less volatile than stocks and> comparing a single mutual fund to a single stock, that is of course> true. Comparing the volatility of a single mutual fund to a carefully> selected basket of stocks and than might not be true.> > The FastTrack community has long had tools and approaches to "timing"> mutual funds as well as trading among mutual funds using relative> strength analysis. And they still do. That said, there are many, many> FastTrackers who are
moving towards trading in ETFs, and stocks because> of the previous slow trend of being banned from funds for frequent> trading (the definition of which is not at all clear). With the recent> surge of mutual fund "scandals" and the phrase "market timing" being> used by lawyers and federal prosecutors all over the country, mutual> funds in mass are fine tuning or adopting measures that will restrict> "timing" even more. Even if that timing is 3 or 4 switches a year.> > I mention this because it is a situation in some transition now and> where it comes out is not clear. Oh yes, besides having the opportunity> of being blacklisted, you also face more ERFs (Early Redemption Fees),> the amounts of which are increasing and the time periods
under which> they apply are getting longer.> > So...be clear WHY you think you want to get into mutual funds and make> sure your investing approach takes into account the trends I describe.> > Ken> > -----Original Message-----> From: jtelang [mailto:jtelang@xxxx]> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:37 PM> To: amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [amibroker] Re: Trading mutual funds...> > Fred/Gary,> > Thanks for the very informative post. Seems I've got lots of> reading to do before I even ask another question. So I might> come back to this after doing some RTFM'ing at the sites you> pointed to.> > Just one quick follow-up question before I start
reading up> on it... So who would you recommend as the data vendor? I'm> currently using QP3 for stocks. Is that not good enough (just> for backtesting) in your opinion?> > Thanks again.> > Jitu> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> wrote:> > One other gotcha ...> >> > MOST data vendors do NOT adjust for dividends and distributions so> be> > carefull where you get data from.> >> > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "Fred" <fctonetti@xxxx> wrote:> > > See below ...> > >> > > --- In amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "jtelang" <jtelang@xxxx> wrote:> > > > Hi
all,> > > >> > > > I was planning to run some backtests on MF data, but I've> > > > never traded them before, so was hoping people who trade> > > > them (Fred?) could offer some insights on some basic> > > > questions -> > > >> > > > 1. What are the good measures to identify liquidity and> > > > market cap of a MF?> > > >> > >> > > You can check their total assets at Morningstar or elsewhere. If> > you> > > mean the market cap that some particular fund invests in you can> > > usually tell by it's name and if not then at Morningstar.> > >> > > > 2.
Are there any funds that are more advantageous to trade> > > > than others? Are the any gotchas in some, which should be> > > > avoided?> > > >> > >> > > Not to be silly but that's like asking if there are any stocks> that> > > are more advantageous than others. In trading/investing in mf's> > > remember that you are basically trading the portfolio managers> > > ability to select companies to be included and his timeliness for> > > getting rid of dogs etc. As far as individual companies that> they> > > select based on their fundamentals they will as a rule of course> be> > > much farther up on the knowledge curve then
individual investors> > > are. The main gotcha I would point out is that for the most> part,> > I> > > would not think of mf's as short term vehicles. The industry has> > in> > > a variety of quarters started putting on early redemption fees> for> > > short term trading which can wind up being the same as slippage> for> > > those who short term trade. By the same token however, there are> > > ways around this via hedging etc.> > >> > > > 3. Any market signal better than others to identify market> > > > trend when it comes to MF's, i.e. is RUT better than SPX or> > > > does it not matter much? Any
others that work better according> > > > to market cap or type of the fund?> > > >> > > As Gary points out in his Camtasia presentation a market timing> > > signal ought to be in tune with what one is trading so as a> result> > I> > > would say that if you are interested in trading small cap mf's> that> > a> > > timing signal that related to what RUT was doing would be> > > appropriate. There are of course loads of index oriented funds> out> > > there but as a rule these are not where the best opportunities> are.> > >> > > > 4. Using 0.1% as commission in backtests is
realistic,> > > > since there's no slippage involved, is that right?> > > >> > > This is a function of what your brokerage charges and the size of> > > your trades. But yes there should be no slippage. EOD NAV is> EOD> > > NAV.> > >> > > > 5. Is it reasonable to run tests with zero delay, with the> > > > assumption that market trend and other external conditions> > > > could calculated a few minutes before the close, and then> > > > trade could be entered just in time?> > > >> > > Yes, I do this evrey day. Some but not most funds have cutoffs> > prior> > > to 4:00 but in
general a trade that is entered at 3:59:45 is as> > good> > > as one entered an hour earlier. I have never had a trade not go> > > through for any other reason than the fact that I executed it> late.> > >> > > > 6. Are there any sites, books, etc. that talk about MF trading> > > > techniques?> > > >> > > Look here http://www.madriver.com/~wwgansz/ for one of the more> > > knowledgable folks in this area, Werner Gansz who Gary referred> to> > in> > > his presentation. This is fairly new site that I think Werner> > > started just for fun which he updates about once a
week. FT-Talk> > > http://www.ft-talk.com/forums/ is also a good site but it's a pay> > > site where loads of stuff is openly published. There are other> > > FT'ers here who are much more knowledgable about Trade & FT then> I> > am> > > who are also AB'ers. I could name some, but maybe they'll step> > > forward. If you are capable of picking up code from other> > languages> > > fairly quickly you could look here> http://home.earthlink.net/~dexf/> > > for TRADE related code that has been published by folks from FT-> > > Talk. This is as the name implies a
FastTrack board. You'll> find> > > tutorials there for TRADE and links to where the full doc for> TRADE> > > and the s/w can be gotten for free.> > >> > > > Thanks in advance.> > > >> > > > Jitu> > > > Send BUG REPORTS to bugs@xxxx> Send SUGGESTIONS to suggest@xxxx> -----------------------------------------> Post AmiQuote-related messages ONLY to: amiquote@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amiquote/messages/)> --------------------------------------------> Check group FAQ at:> <A
href="">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amibroker/files/groupfaq.html> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor> ADVERTISEMENT> > > > > Send BUG REPORTS to bugs@xxxx> Send SUGGESTIONS to suggest@xxxx> -----------------------------------------> Post AmiQuote-related messages ONLY to: amiquote@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> (Web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amiquote/messages/)>
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