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Re: [amibroker] Robustivity



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am I missing 
something?
 
Dave,
 
Sometimes it's tough to address issues and 
provide the specifics that folks are seeking.  So, I will try to "splain" 
it better.  
 
If I am using the CMO5 with triggers of 
34/-34, I would go back and start a test to evaluate this system and 
triggers.  The starting period would be whatever date you pick (1990, 
'97, 2000, etc.).  
 
Next, I run the test over 315 trading days 
(this period gives me results for approximately one year..it takes "x" amount of 
periods to load the TRIX(21), which I use as a trend identifier.  My 
approach produces about 10 to 15 round turn trades a year... in each 
stock.  
 
I then rank all issues by one 
criteria:  percent return per day (while the money is in the market).  
If you only consider the percent per day contributions, I think you will find 
that all other "book learned" ratios come out just fine.  Numbers 
lie.  Would you rather trade a $100 stock that returns $20 or a $20 stock 
that returns $10?  Percent per goes a long way to normalizing the 
comparisons.
 
I pick the 20 best percent per day stocks 
and trade them for the next quarter.  At the end of the quarter, I 
reevaluate the percentage per day contributions and reshuffle the issues in 
play, if necessary.
 
Symtems don't go bad, stocks and 
commodities go bad.  Going bad is best defined by a change in the pattern 
of supply and demand.  The cream rises to the top of the list.  
  
 
Is this optimizing?  Could be, by some 
definitions.  If all the odds are even money, who would you prefer to bet 
on:  Chicago or Kansas City?  KC is undefeated and Chicago couldn't 
beat the local high school.  My money is on KC.
 
The stock betting setup is not 
handicapped (like almost all games).  This is basically a even money play 
(with subtractions for commission and slippage...juice/vigorish).  If you 
have 9,000 issues to play, why won't someone want to bet on the strongest 
performance?
 
I know that the explanation might be over 
simplified...but, the people who know me, in and out of this forum, know that 
this is the way I do it.  I'm not crusading for anything.  This 
works.  I've presented this simplistic approach publicly to large groups 
and in a number of internet seminars. It continues to crank out 
extraordinary profits. 
 
Please let me know if the 
paragraphs help to explain the ranking.
 
Take care,
 
Steve
 
 
----- Original Message ----- 
<BLOCKQUOTE 
>
  <DIV 
  >From: 
  Dave Merrill 
  
  To: <A title=amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  href="">amibroker@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 9:29 
  AM
  Subject: RE: [amibroker] 
Robustivity
  
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>steve, thanks for your response.
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003> 
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>from your msg subject and the way you presented this 
  system, I thought you were offering it as an example of one you 
  had objectively evaluated and determined to be robust. I was 
  interested in how you thought "robustivity" should be evaluated, since you 
  seemed to be contrasting your approach to walkforward optimization and 
  the various other system measures people were talking 
  about.
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003> 
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>what I'm hearing in your response below isn't what I 
  would describe as a specific method for distinguishing accidentally gorgeous 
  backtest results from robustness. you do mention testing also at faster time 
  frames, which isn't a technique that's been mentioned recently. but mostly, 
  the robustness label here seems to come from your integration of various 
  aspects of your long experience with it, like your visual sense of how it 
  behaves. am I missing something?
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003> 
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>another question: you mention issue selection, the 
  idea of looking for stocks you think will trade well with a particular 
  indicator, rather than the other way around. how do you do that? by measuring 
  raw past growth trading that indicator? other measures?
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003> 
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>thanks again,
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003> 
  <SPAN 
  class=496400216-31102003>dave
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  >
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2>just for my understanding, in what sense is this system "robust"? 
    
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2> 
    Well, first, 
    this was presented to the public in the late 90's, at a series of seminars 
    that I conducted for Equis.  Same indicator, same triggers, same 
    everything.  This robust "thing" is a tough one to define.  I'll 
    try to explain what's important to me, but, it's very subjective and just 
    one person's opinion.  
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2>is it because results are similar with 
    different similar periods and thresholds?
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    If you take this 
    CMO5 indicator and step down in time (5, 10, 60 minutes), you need to 
    widen the triggers to obtain decent results.  Other than that, 
    it trades through time-zones with very good 
results.
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2>that seems unlikely, since there isn't very far to go from 5 to hit 1 
    and 0, which I'd guess are significantly different. what sort of testing led 
    you to decide on this period and threshold, and this system for that 
    matter?
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    If you're 
    referring to the CMO5...I first started testing it six years ago.  I've 
    tested and eyeballed every version of CMO(x).  I've created a few 
    indicators that combines different periods of the CMO.  For my money, 
    for my style, this judge of momentum trades more things, more accurately 
    than any other indicator I am aware of.  As I have begged many 
    times:  give me something better...I'll use it instead of 
    this.
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2>is it robust because it works well on 
    many stocks, indexes and funds over a long period of time? 
    
    <FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff 
    size=2> 
    Yes, it works 
    well on many stocks and indexes.  I don't trade funds, but, some fund 
    managers, DTG members, use versions of the CMO to aid their timing.  
    
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <FONT 
    face="Courier New" color=#0000ff size=2>because of the concepts behind the 
    indicator itself?
    <FONT 
    face="Courier New" color=#0000ff size=2> 
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2>I process visually.  The math is beyond me.  My 
    bottom line has always been the same:  give me an indicator that is 
    smooth, yet sensitive to intermediate and major market turns.  After 
    gawking hundreds of charts, everyday, for the last six years, I'm amazed at 
    how this indicator quantifies momentum.  I like versions of the 
    Stochastic RSI and the Standard Error Oscillator, but dollar for dollar, the 
    CMO does it for me.
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2> 
    <FONT 
    face="Courier New" color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003>something else?
    <FONT 
    face="Courier New" color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003> 
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2>I think there's a few other 
    things to mention.  First of all, the ETF's that I showed were chosen 
    because they represent a broad range of stocks and are popular trading 
    instruments.  Do I suggest trading these issues with this 
    system?  No way.  The CMO5 trades a lot of other issues with 
    better results than the ETF's.  I always allow the issues "to pick 
    themselves".  Trade the issues that return the greatest percentages in 
    a stable system.  
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003> 
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2>In it's stripped down 
    version, as presented, the CMO5 is an indicator that can return steady 
    profits (see equity lines) in it's rawest unoptimized form.  Is that 
    robust?  
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003> 
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2>Robustness and 
    optimizing/over-optimizing are fascinating and misunderstood subjects.  
    Over the years, I've constantly simplified my approaches.  I can 
    improve on the results of the three ETF's by simply "tweaking" the trigger 
    levels.  But, will it walk forward better than the default triggers of 
    34/-34?  At least what I presented was out of sample.  
    
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003> 
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2>If an approach does a good 
    job of identifying movement of supply and demand, the approach should 
    not be expected to work on all issues.  To say a system needs to 
    work on all  issues is total crap.   To say that a 
    system sucks because it doesn't work on XYZ is another large pile.  
    Build simple things and concentrate on issue 
    selection.
    <FONT 
    face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=468263723-30102003> 
    Optimization 
    leads to dark and spooky places.  Ranking leads you down the yellow 
    brick road.
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    Take 
    care,
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2>Steve
    <FONT face=Arial 
    size=2> 
    <BLOCKQUOTE 
    >
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>steve, thanks for sharing this 
      (again).
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>just for my understanding, in what sense is this 
      system "robust"? 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>is it because results are similar with different 
      similar periods and thresholds? that seems unlikely, since there isn't 
      very far to go from 5 to hit 1 and 0, which I'd guess are significantly 
      different. what sort of testing led you to decide on this period and 
      threshold, and this system for that matter?
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>is it robust because it works well on many 
      stocks, indexes and funds over a long period of time? 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>because of the concepts behind the indicator 
      itself?
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>something else?
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>I'm not disputing the system's value, which I 
      haven't tested yet. I'm trying to understand what kind of process you go 
      through to settle on a system and settings.
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>thanks,
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003>dave
      <SPAN 
      class=468263723-30102003> 
      <BLOCKQUOTE 
      >
        1.  This exact system was presented 
        over a year ago at this forum
        2.  The charts are OOS (since, it's 
        been posted publicly forever)
        3.  Rules are simple:  Buy the 
        opening of the next day when the CMO5 closes below -34 and sell when it 
        triggers above 34.
         
        Works on most issues (raw).  Works 
        better if:  
         
        a.  You take trades only with the 
        trend
        b.  You protect yourself from large 
        drawdowns (stop)
        c.  You conjure a profit target 
        (limit)
        d.  You put in a time stop 
        
         
        This is the guts of an indicator and a 
        logical systematic approach.  Whistles and bells are optional (but, 
        in my opinion necessary).  Again, if you start with a pig, the prom 
        dress doesn't make it look any better.  Don't hang ornaments on a 
        twisted Christmas 
tree.Send 
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